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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#131
I feel ya. It's hard to measure software engineer productivity, which means it's hard to incentivize software production at the margin, so the tendency is to work hard on your own recognizance until you run out of motivation and then sandbag forever. You can offer engineers equity to try and fix this but it seems like you have to offer quite a bit, and the measurement problem remains.

I know a company where engineers publicly set their own twice-yearly objectives, which are then linked to their bonuses. You can imagine a number of advantages to this system from the perspective of someone trying to optimize a firm: high performers will set difficult goals, sandbaggers will set easy goals that look difficult. Telling the difference is still hard because often only an already-expert person can estimate a problem's difficulty, but at least the loop gets closed in theory.

If the companies you work for never catch you sandbagging, then you're good .. until they go out of business because of all the other dead weight they're carrying and you find the remaining firms use technologies that require you to re-adapt your sandbagging strategy. The firms hope that this adaptation itself will refresh your motivation for a decent percentage of your vest period (since you're one step closer to being truly obsoleted and need to build resume points). Anyone who stays past their vest period can assumed to be a sandbagger, so 2-5 years looks good.

Yeah basically you're fine for now; just remember that this business will kick you out on your ear eventually if you don't keep up. This can happen real fast sometimes. If you don't use some of your fallow time to do continuous learning, you might slip out of your salary range or out of employability entirely-- that's the tail risk you're taking.

Maybe that's why you feel some anxiety: you have a fat-tailed existential risk that hasn't triggered yet. You should feel anxious, it totally can and will trigger eventually.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#132
I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion.

Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their way into a job they don't have the skills for. Your managers are likely dealing with those problems too, so they may be more aware of your situation than you think and are ok with it. Or maybe not, whatever. Not your problem either way. They can let you know if they're not happy with your performance, which it sounds like they are not doing.

However! I will say that this way of working and living comes with some significant hazard to your mental health. Doing something you don't like, care about, or believe in for decades long periods of time can really mess with your sense of self worth and happiness in life. You only have one life, do something with it that is satisfying. Get out of the rat race.

Personally, this realization has led me to switch careers. I'm now in a 2 year evenings and weekends program to get certified to do something that has nothing to do with tech. It is a huge pay cut. I also am happier than I have ever been in my adult life because I'm learning something challenging and helping people instead of coasting through 8 or 9 hours of pretending to work every day. Starting over mid-life and finding another thing that I love as much as I loved computers as a teen has been a blessing worth more than any amount of money.

Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#133

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

> Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the time needed to produce the deliverable of that work. I would say that I do this too. There's a lot of stuff I can more or less do on autopilot and stuff that requires actual attention and finesse , for lack of a better word. I feel like management thinks that I'm good at my job for all of the a…

Or just go and have a shower in the afternoon. It's the best remedy to an afternoon dip I know and one of the major benefits of working from home. It's a great place to solve problems before getting down to coding.

Doing the dishes is indeed a good one too.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#135

I think the need for 10x developers is possible overstated on the internet. In my experience, teams generally figure out how to work around medicore-to-great developers and they're typically not an issue. People online also tend to wear their 40+ hour workweeks like a badge of honor. Many of the people who are 10-20 hour workers like to keep their heads down, both on the internet and in real life, so maybe they're un…

> I think the need for 10x developers is possible overstated on the internet.

I don't really have any opinion one way or the other in most of this, but this part of your comment I completely agree with. Sure there are incredible talented people writing code, but the vast majority, even those writing Linux, Kubernetes or Postgresql, they aren't smarter than you and me, at least not by much.

There where a blog post by Jacob Kaplan-Moss "Embrace the Grind" which I pretty much agree with. Doing the work no one else care to do and just stick with it, even if it's boring for two weeks, that's the stuff that will make you look like a 10x developer (well maybe 2x).

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#137
post #103
post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

> I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... In fact, this is so common that I can name the exact people at several jobs I've had. And I could mention them to my coworkers and they'd know exactly what these people's reputation are. Our feeling toward them is a mix of being impressed and being embarrassed. Impressed because there's something to be said for someone who works the system to their adv…

I've also seen such behavior occur because of burnout/depression. Sometimes the person themselves is unhappy and embarrassed about it too.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#138
post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

> If it was a smaller company they would be called out

Don't be so sure. It is HARD to get fired in this job, sometimes. You have to be actively toxic, or your boss has to have a buddy they want to hire in your position.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#139
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why

Why so much work? Understaffed orgs and exceedingly high expectations of engineers. A lot of management has no social life or life outside of work - so they expect the same of their subordinates. I’ll move on after a year or two. I just wanted some name brand recognition and to give the company a chance. I was tired of going with unknown places.

Not why so much work, but rather why do you put up with it?

I've never understood how companies like this can still exist in today's job environment. Does everyone get paid significantly more than market rate or have equity doubling in value every quarter or something?

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#140
post #91
post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

It must have been a couple of months because... > I keep this link sitting around and enjoy dusting it off every couple of months or so > https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

LOL this came to my mind too. And also the more tech-centric treatment it gets in 'Developer Hegemony' is well wroth a read.

OP is making a perfectly rational decision.

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