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Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

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Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#131
post #11

Just a little side rant on “soul” since you mentioned it in a negative sense for EVs. The “soul” term is marketing BS like the soul patch mustang logo Ford decided to sticker on to the chin of its EV. If you ever see one, look at the front. It’s totally got a soul patch. Eww. As far as engine noise or rumble and that wonderful visceral feeling of the pistons and crankshaft throwing their weight around, I would agree…

You're completely wrong on this one. You chalk a vehicle's engine-as-soul up to marketing, even though it's something that can be felt without knowing anything about the vehicle or its history. Yet you think some backstory about how it's made defines it's soul? That screams marketing. Half of the mass produced things I buy have a blurb about the backstory and passion that the founders had on the box.

I've had motorcycle engines with the following configurations (among many others): - 200cc single cylinder - 250cc single cylinder - 650cc single cylinder - 250cc two-stroke single - 500cc two-stroke single - 300cc parallel twin - 800cc parallel twin - 650cc v-twin - 1200cc opposed twin - 900cc inline triple - 650cc inline four - 1000c inline four

Every one is completely unique in how it feels, sounds, rides, and performs.

Add to that the almost innumerable number of other ancillary configurations to the above such as:

- balance shaft (or lack thereof...) - valve timing - firing order - cylinder bank angle - carbeurator vs fuel injection - diesel vs gas - naturally aspirated vs supercharger vs turbocharger - nonstandard engine types like rotary, V5, W configurations, V4 - compression ratio - two vs four cycle operation - low end torque, midrange power, top end power.

If the difference between electric motor personalities is a gap in the sidewalk, the difference between ICE engine personalities is the grand canyon.

I've never had a vehicle with more soul than a high power two stroke with a well tuned exhaust. You can't ever convince me that an exhaust with a resonant chamber tuned like a musical instrument to harness sound waves for forced induction has no soul. I've felt it. This [2] is a good animation of how the two-stroke works. No valves, powered by explosions, and a truly musical exhaust note. There's nothing else like it on the planet, and when put in a soulful body like a dirt bike it lets you know immediately.

While I disagree that the engine is the soul of he vehicle, it is definitely a huge part of it. Beigemobile econoboxes are intentionally designed to suppress the soul of the vehicle, despite how marketing likes to advertise them. Nobody's offroading or tracking their crossovers even though every commercial implies as much. The buyers of those vehicles are largely (and the commenters in this thread say as much) looking for the most generic and unsurprising vehicle possible. They are designed as much as possible to make you forget that you're in a vehicle. Even 'interesting' vehicles are being regulated into this generic future. See: Fake engine sounds being played through speakers [1].

The most different electric motors will still feel largely the same, while two mostly similar gas motors can feel completely different. Call it soul, personality, or anything else, but the future of vehicles is going to be much more bland, even if they go faster on paper.

You can't ride a motorcycle and say with a straight face that gas engines have no soul. They embrace it, they don't hide from it. There's still cars out there with souls, but they are forced to blend in for fear of losing theirs as well.

I don't really know where I'm going with this. I get that the metaphysical is frowned upon around these parts. But it definitely exists, even if we can't precisely define or measure it.

Electric is better in pretty much every metric that can be measured. And disastrous for the things that can't. Someone mentioned in this thread mentioned that vehicles are probably going to become white labeled from foxconn as electric gains traction, and I can't help but see that as the future myself. That's what it means to sell your soul.

[1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a7923/the-rise-of-the-...

[2] https://i.stack.imgur.com/Qk44Y.gif

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#133

I think that you can take all of the differentiators that exist for ICE vehicles (price, reliability, status ...) and then add in some new factors: 1) Range anxiety 2) Recharge concerns (plays into range anxiety) 3) Novel technology fears (will my trusted mechanic of twenty years be able to handle this or am I stuck with the dealership?) 4) "Handling" -- will this drive like my old ICE car? Apparently a major irritat…

Re: #3 - handle what? Changing the oil? Replacing the clutch. Dealing with the camshaft gears shredding and destroying engine? Fixing any part of the gear box? Of the automatic gearbox? My belt tensioner isn't. The clutch on my ac is broken. My powersteering hydraulic line came loose and sprayed all over the road. My power steering pump needs replacing (a month after the fluid got dumped). Piston ring blown. Cylinder head gasket needs replacing.

So looking forward not to have to take the car to any kind of mechanic at all except for brakes and wiper fluid. Sure, anything else probably means swapping something out, but if you've ever had your gasoline engine out of your car, you'll know swapping out an electric motor is trivial by comparison.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#134
Range, acceleration, cornering ability, safety features, cargo space, presence or absence of "smart car" so-called technology, how long any needed software updates are available, presence or absence of self-driving features, availability of maintenance information and replacement parts, how the drivetrain is configured, whether individual components can be replaced with aftermarket parts without the car's computer freaking out, how many watt-hours per mile it consumes, what charging standards it complies with, how fast it can be charged, presence or absence of tiny hard-to-replace components that can brick the car if they fail, what it looks like, how heavy it is, how comfortable it is to drive or ride in, how long it is expected to last before falling apart.

I think it would be a shame if all EVs ended up being essentially clones of each other. Maybe as the technology matures we'll start to see more variety of vehicles like pickup trucks (whether the cybertruck or just an ordinary pickup), off-road vehicles, and so on. I'd love to see someone start making EVs with manual transmissions, for people who actually like driving stickshift, but that seems to be an unpopular opinion.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#135

Modularity. Nobody wants to spend $3,000+ to replace a battery. Until it's possible for the average consumer to replace a battery module nobody is going to trust electric vehicles.

It's probably accurate that given the choice not spending $3000 to replace a battery and... spending $3000 to replace a battery, people would choose the former. But if you drive your car 200,000 miles and lost too much range to continue driving your car, but it only costs $3000 to get the battery to an "as new" state? Yeah, they'll spend it.

Just for some frame of reference, lots and lots of people replace internal combustion engines in their cars, either to restore a vehicle, or to upgrade it. Spoiler - they often cost more than $3000 (before factoring in labor)!

[0] https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/category/SB.html

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#138
post #99

I wish I could say I'll choose an electric car that is built on FOSS so I can actually have the source code to the thing I own. I don't see that being terribly likely, but the next best thing would be one with software that isn't openly hostile to me. I don't want my car phoning home or being updated without my permission. I don't want my car lying to me, hiding, or refusing to disclose the status of sensors. I don't…

It'd be completely fair to say that, and I'd join you in saying it. I'm unlikely to want to be a car owner or user, but if & when riding in them, it'd be nice to be in a software environment that's fully customizable and has passengers' interests, comfort and safety in mind to a verifiable degree - with a guarantee that those values won't change along with the board seats at the manufacturer.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#139

56 million cars sold last year. How many do you think were bought because they do not create emissions, or because of any serious consideration of the engineering behind them? People buy a Toyota Corolla or Prius because it's below the median price, reliable and efficient. They will buy it and then never think about it again because it'll "just work." People buy a Ford F150 because they either have some real use for…

I think several of your categories nailed what the vast majority of car owners are looking for: an transportation appliance. This is where I think EVs will eventually dominate the market, the only thing you will have to worry about is plugging it in. The simplicity of the electric drive train will make them even more reliable (and efficient) than the best gas vehicles today. No more oil changes. No more random fluid leaks on your driveway. No more mornings where you are late for work because your car wouldn't start or you forgot you had to stop and fill up with gas on the way to work.

Re: Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

#140
post #109
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for writing what I couldn't figure out how to put into words. I'll add one more thing: there are enough cars sold that there is enough market to support developing lots of different cars.

What is interesting is seeing the market contract in recent years. After 2008, a lot of car companies killed their performance models or lines off entirely, despite the bull run presumably adding more money in peoples pocket in years since. Car manufactureres are realizing they don't need to develop a lot of cars. That it's a bad business decision to build a 400hp turbocharged mitsubishi lancer and sell it to the tin…

There's an ongoing joke about every time a manufacturer announces/releases a new performance car:

Internet car enthusiasts: "What an awesome car! It's RWD, great power, stick shift, awesome handling! It's going to sell amazingly well! I'm definitely going to buy one......."

".....used in five years!"

Meanwhile all the consumers that buy (or more often these days, lease) new cars are snapping up FWD (or FWD biased AWD) 4cylinder automatic CUVs.

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