Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#131

Post by roguecoder » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #2

If you feel you're underpaid, I encourage you to negotiate aggressively for what you feel you're worth. Amazon is full of resources to help you with that. As for culture, I'd say just ask. Ask what the team does for fun. That will more or less tell you if you will fit in or not.

I recommend not blaming individual women for the structural inequalities they face.

The consequences for men and women negotiating (particularly "aggressively") are different. At the very least, someone perceived as a woman has to be prepared for backlash in a way that people perceived as men don't experience if they negotiate.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#132

Post by roguecoder » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

ramy_d wrote: post #20

I am on the other side of that table, in a different industry ,and in a different country with a different cultural context, but my 2¢: Can you identify any women, non-binary, people of color, etc who are in a position of power within the company, like a (co-)founder? I find that to be a big factor. Not that straight white guys are inherently creating toxic work environments but it's surprising how easy it is to not…

"Who do they hand power to?" says a ton about people.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#133

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

jey wrote: post #109

pascalxus wrote: post #53

I'm not a minority, but I think you should be asking this question to everyone, not just minorities. Everyone deserves a non-toxic environment and it's an issue everyone has to deal with. Here's my strategy: Read the glassdoor reviews - If it mentions "people crying at their desks", that's a bad sign - actually any kind of crying in a professional environment is a bad sign. Also, words like "high energy" and "passion…

> Also, words like "high energy" and "passion" often reflect poorly as well. Interesting. Can you expand on this? I don't see "passion" as negative; it seems to just mean that people like their work.

Passion is great. But there are plenty of companies that say they want passion when what they really want is the willingness to work too many hours on whatever flight of fancy upper management is currently chasing.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#134

Post by JimboOmega » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

thisone wrote: post #126

JimboOmega wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any place with crap culture is crap culture for almost everyone, no matter gender-identity or race. I can't agree with you. If you work for a company that makes negative assumptions about you because of your gender/race, you'll have a worse experience than when they make positive assumptions. It's about things like when you bring up an idea in a meeting, and it's totally ignored, and the guy across the table brings…

A place that allows discrimination is not a positive environment for everyone who is not part of the discriminated group. People who are not part of the discriminated group do see what's going on. However they are often powerless themselves to do anything other than leave. A toxic environment affects almost everyone exposed to it.

Oh, I agree. It's not automatically a good place to work for those who aren't directly discriminated against, and it can be really frustrating to watch.

Still, it's a better experience for the person who is blind to it, than the person who sees it but can't fix it, than the person more directly discriminated against.

In today's tech world it is possible for an organization - especially a small one - to remain discriminatory and not fall apart, while the discriminators themselves remain relatively blind to it.

It will never be as good an organization as it would be otherwise, though.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#135

Post by roguecoder » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:43 PM UTC

nothrabannosir wrote: post #51

notalaser wrote: post #35

Full disclosure: white dude, not a minority of any kind in my country. Five years ago, I would have said that the percentage of women in an office isn't necessarily a good indicator of anything. Nowadays, this would be my first advice: ask how many women work there. With maybe one exception, all the places I've worked in that had very few women were terrible places to work in. Most of them were unpleasant to work in…

At what scale does this advice start? I worked for and with a few almost-all-male startups that just hadn't run into female hires in their first year / ±10 employees. Great work environments, ended up hiring women in the following years.

After "5" I figure it's got momentum and/or reflects a structural problem with recruiting, and either way it is going to become much harder to fix in the future.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#136

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:46 PM UTC

JimboOmega wrote: post #120

thisone wrote: post #95

how do you know the 'great culture' is for assumedly white dudes (what does that mean even, white dude is not some singular set of human traits)? I'm female, I've been the first and the only woman on teams. I don't give a crap about it. I do my job and expect my colleagues to do the same. Any place with crap culture is crap culture for almost everyone, no matter gender-identity or race. I look for places where the em…

> Any place with crap culture is crap culture for almost everyone, no matter gender-identity or race. I can't agree with you. If you work for a company that makes negative assumptions about you because of your gender/race, you'll have a worse experience than when they make positive assumptions. It's about things like when you bring up an idea in a meeting, and it's totally ignored, and the guy across the table brings…

> I can't agree with you. If you work for a company that makes negative assumptions about you because of your gender/race, you'll have a worse experience that when they make positive assumptions.

The parent's assertion is trivially rebuttable. Here's an article written by the first woman partner at a major New York law firm: https://www.ou.org/jewish_action/11/2012/striking-a-balance-.... The firm in question has cultivated a reputation for its politeness and professionalism over 168 years.

The culture was great for favored people, even back in the 1960s. Ms. Kess speaks highly of her colleagues: "My colleagues were ethical, brilliant, helpful people." But not so for disfavored people. She writes of what happened after she got pregnant: "In those days, the firm did not offer maternity leave and I was afraid to say anything. I knew that secretaries who became pregnant were dismissed, but I was the first woman attorney at the firm to have a baby."

In the end, the firm was accommodating, and Ms. Kess went on to become the first woman partner at the firm. But hey, whatever happened to those secretaries?

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#137

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:46 PM UTC

brink wrote: post #123

Straight white software engineering male here - I've never worked in an environment where I thought it to be sexist. Is the environment out there worse than what I'm seeing or seem to believe?

As another straight white man, let me suggest that we are generally the last people to notice discriminatory environments. We are all much more likely to notice things that harm us than things that work in our favor. The way to find out the extent of this problem is to listen to the people most likely to experience it.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#138

Post by tzs » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:48 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #81

watwut wrote: post #56

Disclaimer: I am women, but never stepped the foot in CA. Geography matters. I see ping pong tables and free beer as a red flag of sorts and seek workplace that is more formal. The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters. I have no stats to support this, just my guess and…

The part about ping pong and beer vs a more formal workplace is really interesting. I've been reading more about this lately. One story that struck me was about a journalist whose newspaper was purchased by a tech company, and the culture changed. She went from having a private office to working in a huge, open office environment. I'm putting this together from memory, but I remember her talking about how strange it…

> [...] and having to take it with her to the bathroom (feeling somewhat self conscious about how her more frequent trips appeared to her younger, generally male coworkers)

Get one of these kitchen timers [1].

Set it to about 25 minutes.

When it goes off get up from your desk and spend a few minutes walking around the office.

Return to your desk, reset the timer, and go to prior step.

When you wish to visit the bathroom do so on one of your strolls around the office.

Coworkers will ask what you are doing (this is one of the reasons to use a physical timer instead of something running on your computer...it will be noticeable). Here are three reasonable explanations for why you go on a stroll around the office every 25 minutes or so.

1. It is unhealthy to sit for extended periods. If you get up and move around every 25 or 30 minutes or so most of the bad effects of sitting can be eliminated or greatly reduced [2].

2. When solving problems it is best to have a mix of "focused mode" and "diffuse mode" thinking. Get into focused mode and then when the timer goes off you can take a break and let diffuse mode take over. That walk around the office is perfect for some diffuse mode thinking. There is much more about this in the "Learning How To Learn" course available at Coursera.

3. There is a time management technique called the Pomodoro Technique [3] built around breaking tasks into 25 minute chunks paced using a timer.

Once people see you doing this I'd not be surprised if several other coworkers start doing the same. Reason #1 alone will get a lot of people.

Once several people are doing this no one will have any idea how often you visit the bathroom (well, except for those people whose can see the bathroom from their desks). And as a side effect you'll have better health and productivity.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/60-Minute-Kitcher-Timer-Tomato/dp/B00...

[2] http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/cuesitstand.html

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#139

Post by ameister14 » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:49 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #81

watwut wrote: post #56

Disclaimer: I am women, but never stepped the foot in CA. Geography matters. I see ping pong tables and free beer as a red flag of sorts and seek workplace that is more formal. The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters. I have no stats to support this, just my guess and…

The part about ping pong and beer vs a more formal workplace is really interesting. I've been reading more about this lately. One story that struck me was about a journalist whose newspaper was purchased by a tech company, and the culture changed. She went from having a private office to working in a huge, open office environment. I'm putting this together from memory, but I remember her talking about how strange it…

I really don't think it's insidious - the negative effects are obvious. The issue is that open offices are cheaper and you can put a lot more people per square foot in them. They also often look visually more appealing.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#140

Post by roguecoder » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 9:49 PM UTC

mythrwy wrote: post #106

"toxicity" is often a matter of perspective. But it's never alright to inhibit the world flow. If that inhibition is racism, sexism, alcohol, crude jokes, or (on the other hand) creating drama and magnifying issues it's all no good. And the law has to be followed. And if you are decent person at whatever level you are you don't annoy others around you at work. And if you are a wise manager you don't allow annoyances,…

lol at "creating drama and magnifying issues" being just as bad as racism and sexism, and also somehow "on the other hand". Groups I've worked in that are all dudes are the most f'king dramatic I've been involved in. No meeting I've been in with multiple women has ever descended into a screaming match.

I fully admit women may be just as capable of being dramatic ego-driven shits as men, and my sample size is just too small, but your dichotomy is dumb.

Besides, "magnifying issues" is a key component of kanban. If you aren't welcome to magnify issues, the culture is probably going to deevolve over time.