Ask HN: Do you still use UML? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#131

Post by k__ » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 4:46 PM UTC

mannykannot wrote: post #130

Back in the late 80's, there was the CASE (Computer-Aided Software Engineering) fad, when it was thought diagrams could replace code. The idea that a picture is worth a thousand words is not applicable to most of the words one would use to discuss systems designs. It is very difficult to discuss purpose and intent, or to present arguments that the design satisfies requirements or observes constraints, to justify choi…

When going into a new OOP project, I like to browse the code and create class diagrams for it.

It's intersting to see what classes aren't used at all and where all the associations accumulate.

Also, if the "previous devs" are still around it's easier to talk with them about these pictures, than to talk about 100 text files.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#132

Post by cordite » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 4:49 PM UTC

The only concept of UML I use is the N-many relationships, adding a number or asterisk to the edges between things.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#133

Post by mannykannot » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 4:53 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #131

mannykannot wrote: post #130

Back in the late 80's, there was the CASE (Computer-Aided Software Engineering) fad, when it was thought diagrams could replace code. The idea that a picture is worth a thousand words is not applicable to most of the words one would use to discuss systems designs. It is very difficult to discuss purpose and intent, or to present arguments that the design satisfies requirements or observes constraints, to justify choi…

When going into a new OOP project, I like to browse the code and create class diagrams for it. It's intersting to see what classes aren't used at all and where all the associations accumulate. Also, if the "previous devs" are still around it's easier to talk with them about these pictures, than to talk about 100 text files.

Good point. I find sequence diagrams can be useful in places, as well.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#134

Post by yoz-y » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

double_entendre wrote: post #118

yoz-y wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

planUML changed my view on UML. The basic application is extremely ugly and the output is far from being good looking, but writing UML in plain text is extremely refreshing.

You mean PlantUML?

Oh, yes indeed!

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#135

Post by sidlls » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

alemhnan wrote: post #103

sidlls wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Must be some pretty trivial software, since 90% of the code base is apparently class and function declarations filled with empty or pointless (get/set) OO garbage.

Some enterprise software, most of the patterns are well know and the customization point are well defined. I would describe more as a well know domain with clear constraints than trivial software. They generate a lot of code also for high critical real time software (avionics and space) but that is not really trivial.

I'm skeptical the code generators are used for the actual function bodies at any level. That's 90% of any non-trivial code, not function and class declarations and stubs.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#136

Post by mark_l_watson » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 5:12 PM UTC

I co-wrote a book on UML years ago. Back then, I thought that UML diagrams helped with communication. However, Sequence Diagrams are the only type of diagrams I use anymore.

For Java, perhaps high level class diagrams are still useful also, but I have been switching over to using Haskell (as much as I can) and I have not worked on a large Java project in a long while.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#137

Post by stevesun21 » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 5:12 PM UTC

Yes. It is the language designed for software engineers to share designs, logic and ideas with others. I never enjoy the scene that two engineers talk designs in front a white board by keep writing some random words they catched during talk and draw some wired line and cycles. The most painful part is that even they take a picture of it, they still have to argue about the ideas later when they start coding. :-(

UML is actually the first language a software developer should learn. The most ridiculous words I have heard is that a senior engineer "mentor" other juniors say the IBM Rose is UML! And argue about how Rose huge and hard to use.

I really worry if there still have some deciplines exist in software industry, if so many people still obsessed to call themself software engineer?

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#138

Post by meekins » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

I'm really lazy when it comes to maintaining docs and mainaining UML is sometimes a pain so I only use dynamic parts of UML like sequence diagrams on a relatively generic level that is less likely to change (examples of call flow between modules/tiers with different responsibilities).

Class diagrams are pretty nice when building a rich domain model since it's pretty easy to move from rough conceptual level closer to designing and documenting the actual implementation while working on the same diagram over time.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#139

Post by pjmlp » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

Yes, all the time.

We don't go full UML, but it is the best tool to have a solid architecture overview, before committing to solutions that won't fit with what customers actually want.

It is also a very good tool to onboard new developers into the team without forcing them spending endless hours reading code.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#140

Post by incangold » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #87

In its entirety? No. Never go "full UML", it will annihilate productivity and produce abominable software. It also is taught wrong, it tends to be taught as a design tool, but there's such a tremendous impedence mismatch between the diagramming tools and the way the code actually gets written that it ends up doing more harm than good. (not to mention that the people who usually end up creating the UML might be many o…

I still find sequence diagrams to be a useful conversation tool.