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Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

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Re: Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

#121
post #87
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this the one where he says the web was designed by amateurs and it should have been a virtual machine instead? He says they did a better web 30 years before or something to that effect. If so I'll commit blasphemy and say he's wronger than wrong. I was especially offended that a curious person would display such ignorance in understanding the work of others. Without going too much into detail, if he believes this,…

That exact quote is from a more recent talk of his, but he does mention the web and his current distaste for the design principles it embodies. I would encourage you to still watch the talk as it his criticism of the web is an incredibly small portion of the overall talk. I wish that you had included more substance in your criticisms so I could have either agreed with you, disagreed, or explained my interpretation of…

I don't think your response addresses the principle of least power. That it takes millions of lines of code to create a web browser is a separate issue.

The principle of least power basically means that you should convey meaning across the web using the least expressive language or abstraction possible. The reason is that you want give the client more choices to interpret the data/content, rather than forcing it to correspond.

http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Principles.html

Google, or any other search engine, would not be possible without the principle of least power. Mobile phones wouldn't have been able to use the web if the semantics were over-fitted for specific devices.

I've heard what is essentially Kay's argument from other sources too. Some computer scientist at Adobe (may have even been one of the founders) lamented that the web wasn't build on PDF. PDF is a Turing complete language that can describe any page layout.

Certainly after one has messed with CSS enough, you can see why he would say that (aside from the obvious favoritism). But it is terrible idea, in that it overfits content for specific devices, and is a vector for malware, etc. Once you are Turing complete, it's very hard to avoid these pitfalls.

Anyway, as I recall, Kay is making essentially the exact same argument as the Adobe guy, and the way he said it in that talk (Programming and Scaling, thanks below) displays astonishing ignorance for such a brilliant guy.

If Kay is right, then he should just create a web that is based on a VM. And then he can see how far it goes. It will never go anywhere because it will be broken by design.

That we are developing more VMs now for the web doesn't negate the point. The web should be layered; each kind of content should choose the least powerful channel to transmit it. If you need arbitrary code, then the least powerful abstraction is a Turing complete VM. But you don't need a Turing machine to display a blog post.

Re: Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

#122
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this the one where he says the web was designed by amateurs and it should have been a virtual machine instead? He says they did a better web 30 years before or something to that effect. If so I'll commit blasphemy and say he's wronger than wrong. I was especially offended that a curious person would display such ignorance in understanding the work of others. Without going too much into detail, if he believes this,…

> If so I'll commit blasphemy and say he's wronger than wrong. I was especially offended that a curious person would display such ignorance in understanding the work of others. I don't see how he can be wrong. The point he made wasn't that the things they did in the 70s were better than today's web or UIs. Just that people (and companies) should have invested in THAT line of work, and building on THOSE principles, in…

Read my response above; you're not addressing the point he makes that the web should have been based on a VM. That's what I'm saying is wronger than wrong.

If their line of research is based on distributing content over VMs, then that's completely different than the web's design philosophy, and it's probably THE reason his ideas never were adopted while the web was.

Those design ideas are diametrically opposed. The design of the web won, for that specific reason. It was BETTER rather than worse, as he claims.

I was astonished during the talk that he never reflected on why his ideas in this area weren't successful while the web was. It is NOT because the designers of the web are idiots or amateurs. That is specifically what he claims.

Re: Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

#123
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just watched it...really great stuff. But can anyone chime in on how you can apply some of the principles in his talk to something like a retain-mode display library, for GUI or 3d for example? Libraries like these pop up in all popular OO languages and usually have long inheritance chains with very state-heavy classes, which further form somewhat rigid hierarchies of class instances at runtime. This violates some of…

View layers can get complex, but you can at the very least encapsulate complexity and have it interact with other parts of the system in a simple well defined way. Have the separate layers of the application communicate via interfaces that keep the ingress, egress points of data flow well defined. Things like event pub/sub systems can further decouple things, the observer pattern, etc.

I meant that if I were designing a general-purpose retain-mode GUI library or 3d engine from the ground up and wanted to incorporate his principles as much as possible, how could I do that? Maybe a retain-mode approach is just inherently (too?) complex?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your answer is in reference to using such a library, and I can certainly see how my question implied that, so sorry for the confusion if this is the case. Thanks for your answer regardless.

Re: Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

#124
post #40

Of course, the best technical talk is WAT by Gary Bernhardt! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXEgk1Hdze0

Oh god that was 5 minutes of constant shooting my tea out of my nose laughing. Never heard of that talk before, thx for the lols.

Re: Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

#125

I seem to remember the famous "Diligence, Patience, and Humility" bit by larry wall as reported in the "Open Sources" book was originally a speech. If so I'd vote for that. Otherwise, at some time I really enjoyed Guy Steele's talks while he was working on Fortress, e.g. How to Think about Parallel Programming: Not! http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Thinking-Parallel-Program...

I'm always impressed by Larry's talks. Every time I see him talk about Perl 6 it really makes me want to work on and use Perl 6. So, I'm trying not to see Larry talk, anymore.

Re: Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

#126
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

View layers can get complex, but you can at the very least encapsulate complexity and have it interact with other parts of the system in a simple well defined way. Have the separate layers of the application communicate via interfaces that keep the ingress, egress points of data flow well defined. Things like event pub/sub systems can further decouple things, the observer pattern, etc.

I meant that if I were designing a general-purpose retain-mode GUI library or 3d engine from the ground up and wanted to incorporate his principles as much as possible, how could I do that? Maybe a retain-mode approach is just inherently (too?) complex? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your answer is in reference to using such a library, and I can certainly see how my question implied that, so sorry for the confu…

At that level it's similar tradeoffs. Consider what the code would look like if it were purely functional. In fact a good answer to your question would be for a thought exercise take a look at how XMonad is implemented in Haskell. That would be a completely different approach to the large, heavily coupled messes that OOP can sometimes lead to when modeling the state as mutable object members.

Re: Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

#127
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant that if I were designing a general-purpose retain-mode GUI library or 3d engine from the ground up and wanted to incorporate his principles as much as possible, how could I do that? Maybe a retain-mode approach is just inherently (too?) complex? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your answer is in reference to using such a library, and I can certainly see how my question implied that, so sorry for the confu…

At that level it's similar tradeoffs. Consider what the code would look like if it were purely functional. In fact a good answer to your question would be for a thought exercise take a look at how XMonad is implemented in Haskell. That would be a completely different approach to the large, heavily coupled messes that OOP can sometimes lead to when modeling the state as mutable object members.

Thank you, I will look into that. Sorry, forgot to upvote you...fixed!

Re: Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

#128
post #5

Bret Victor: Inventing on Principle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII

A friend of mine invited Bret to do this talk. He told me that Bret sent close to 50 emails leading up to the event making sure that every aspect of the talk was perfectly choreographed.

Mr Leavitt is the coolest.

Re: Ask HN: What's the best technical talk you've heard?

#130

No too sure about technical but Greg Wilsons "What We Actually Know About Software Development, and Why We Believe It's True" has greatly influenced how I approach everything I have to look at in life. http://vimeo.com/9270320

Greg Wilson expands on that topic in a book called "Making Software: What Really Works, and Why We Believe It".
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