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Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

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Re: Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did the same, except with Netscape Composer. That was a time where the output of the WYSIWYG editor - really, the source of any page - was pretty digestible, even to me as a middle school student. I've noticed recently that the JavaScript debugger in Firefox can "un-Webpack" (and in some cases un-minify, if I've read the inputs and outputs correctly) the code behind many sites. It's certainly not as approachable as…

I think it was Microsoft FrontPage that had the most undigestible output at the time. A mess of tables, inline styles, Internet Explorer-specific tricks, plus a reliance on FrontPage Server Extensions for full functionality. Adobe still had GoLive at the time, which was basically what Dreamweaver is now, and it didn't mangle the output as much, neither did Netscape Composer (which was way more limited). Many of the s…

FrontPage was indeed terrible, it caused me to make an even worse decision in the 1990’s—-make websites almost entirely out of image maps, and then eventually that terrible idea evolved into the classic terrible approach to early ‘00’s web frontends (bum bum bum): Macromedia Flash and Actionscript (the latter of which I actually remember fondly, although I may just be remembering it with rose-tinted glasses).

Edit: clarification of bad writing

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

#122

I had to read the question twice. Dreamweaver was the go-to in 2010 ? I think it was already well on its decline by then. At a new job in 2003 one of my first tasks was to generate new “heat map” code since the company was updating the background image file for 50-state map interfaces. Dreamweaver had the best interface for doing that work, so I got a copy and spent a couple days carefully tracing the 50 state outlin…

Funny story, I'm a SWE and my wife used to work as a marketing manager. Her boss wanted her to make something similar, a heat map over a U.S. map. Except he wanted it to work in Excel. She asked me about it and I told her I could code something like that, but no way inside Excel... Sure enough, she hacked on it for a while and was able to actually build a functioning heat map in Excel. I have no idea how it works. I'…

Set default zoom on the sheet to very small and map out states by cells - treat them like pixels.

So much yuck.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny story, I'm a SWE and my wife used to work as a marketing manager. Her boss wanted her to make something similar, a heat map over a U.S. map. Except he wanted it to work in Excel. She asked me about it and I told her I could code something like that, but no way inside Excel... Sure enough, she hacked on it for a while and was able to actually build a functioning heat map in Excel. I have no idea how it works. I'…

Set default zoom on the sheet to very small and map out states by cells - treat them like pixels. So much yuck.

I did this back in the early/mid 1990's. I wrote a program that could convert .gif files to Excel using the cells as pixels. I converted a pic of a supermodel and sent the excel file to my buddies. They were surprised to say the least.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was Microsoft FrontPage that had the most undigestible output at the time. A mess of tables, inline styles, Internet Explorer-specific tricks, plus a reliance on FrontPage Server Extensions for full functionality. Adobe still had GoLive at the time, which was basically what Dreamweaver is now, and it didn't mangle the output as much, neither did Netscape Composer (which was way more limited). Many of the s…

FrontPage was indeed terrible, it caused me to make an even worse decision in the 1990’s—-make websites almost entirely out of image maps, and then eventually that terrible idea evolved into the classic terrible approach to early ‘00’s web frontends (bum bum bum): Macromedia Flash and Actionscript (the latter of which I actually remember fondly, although I may just be remembering it with rose-tinted glasses). Edit: c…

Oh man that reminds me of customizing people Neopets personal pages as kid. Image maps and tables everywhere.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

#125

No, no one is using it. It never was a go-to tool even back then. I feel old by just remembering it. Dreamweaver solved no one's problems. 1) Regular users didn't need it: they couldn't use it for publishing their web-sites anyway. They quickly just switched to social media for publishing their content. 2) Dreamweaver was not a great tool for professionals too. Its code editor was not convenient and overall the progr…

"Would it be a complicated app? Yes. Would it require a lot of programming? Yes. Would it immediately bring money? No. So currently it's probably won't be a good idea to work on it."

Consider that web browsers essentially do the reverse of HTML editors such as Dreamweaver. Moreover, all current web browsers do a much better job at rendering web pages from HTML than do WYSIWYG editors do at turning text into HTML.

I don't think many appreciate how sophisticated web browsers are these days. Now consider that browsers such as Firefox and Chromium are open source, their code could be used to develop HTML editors.

The question I keep asking is why aren't there a plethora of HTML editors out there that harness the algorithms these browsers already use for their own development.

As you suggest, producing a good HTML editor is very hard work, if it weren't then there'd be many good editors out there but there aren't. Take wordprocessors with a 'save as HTML' option and one will find the code they produde ranges from almost unusable to abominable.

Same goes for email editors that produce HTML-formatted emails. For example, Thunderbird has about the worst HTML editor around, it's brain-dead and full of bugs, and it's been like that for decades. It's as if those at Mozilla are terrified to touch it for fear that they'll kill it altogether.

Now keep in mind that Thunderbird actually uses the Firefox engine so what's going on here? With Thunderbird is the browser code completely divorced from its email editor?

OK, you may well say that's just how is it with Thunderbird, the editor evolved separately to its rendering engine. I'll then say take a good look at BlueGriffon which is quite an excellent HTML editor based on Firefox (despite the fact that it's awkward to use and hasn't been updated in ages). How come its developer can produce good HTML whereas Thunderbird's developers don't seem to have a clue?

Also, how relevant to this discussion is the fact that BlueGriffon's development has ceased: http://bluegriffon.org/. What's the actual reason for the developer ceasing development (there's likely more than he's stating on his webpage)?

Right, perhaps somewhere in all that comment lies the path to actual truth of the matter—that is, how difficult it is to actually make a decent HTML editor?

I've been on the lookout for a good open-source HTML editor for years and I've yet to see a decent discussion, analysis or exposé of the subject. Why not?

It's still impossible to sort out whether the demand for a decent HTML editor just isn't there or whether it's a too bigger project and not worth the effort.

I wish those who are truly in the know would put this matter to rest. Many of us who don't wish to delve deep into web browser/editor code would love some answers.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

#126

Dreamweaver? Who remembers Drumbeat 2000?

I vaguely remember HoTMetaL Pro or something like that, by, maybe, SoftQuad?

a sales guy in a company where I worked long back, was making a quotation for it, or something like that.

update: i googled to check it:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoftQuad_Software

james clark is mentioned there as one of their notable employees.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clark_(programmer)

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

#127
post #45

I like dreamweaver. But I could still code html by hand with HotDogPro. The one that I really miss is Macromedia Fireworks. The perfect mix between vector editor + html editor + OOP. And to think that it did all of that in the metadata of a binary format (png). Nothing has come close.

fireworks is still the best 2d graphics design system I’ve ever used.

I used to make a non-insignificant amount of rasterised computer “art” using fireworks, its discontinuance (and the fact that photoshop was not at all a replacement) killed that for me.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

#129
post #17

I think the emerging meta seems to be using LLMs that will create HTML components for you from your Figma storyboards. And also to let another LLM create your Figma storyboards from your novel design ideas. And asking a third LLM to give you some novel design ideas.

One prompt to generate 75% of what you want and get you excited and fill you with a sense of dread over what it means for future tech careers. 10 prompts to add a new feature. 20 prompts to add a second feature and fix everything that broke in the 1st feature while adding the second. 50 prompts to add a third feature and fix what broke in the 1st and 2nd features while adding the third.

One for the Dark Lord on his Dark Throne,

In the damp bedroom where the doges lie,

One Prompt to rule them all, One prompt to find them,

One Prompt to bring them all and in the darkness bind them,

In the damp bedroom where the black molds lie.

Edit: don't judge me I'm not a poet.

Re: Ask HN: Is anyone still using Dreamweaver?

#130
post #45

I like dreamweaver. But I could still code html by hand with HotDogPro. The one that I really miss is Macromedia Fireworks. The perfect mix between vector editor + html editor + OOP. And to think that it did all of that in the metadata of a binary format (png). Nothing has come close.

Allaire Homesite anyone? It was a sad day for me when it got bought and integrated into Dreamweaver.

Homesite was amazing. I consider it the first real text editor that I've ever used. And I hated Macromedia for killing it.
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