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Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

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Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#121

Post by xlii »

As many others I do use fd/rg/ctags, custom scripts, some even Perl ones; Today I’m on Kakoune but had plenty of Emacs integrations when it was my daily driver (Kakoune taught me to pipe selection through a script that echoes code fragment which works in most editors, e.g.: `|gosnip_if_err_panic.pl` with `responseErr` selected).

I think that the reasons I’m not using IDEs/LSP are more worthy sharing:

First one is that I cannot use one. While the main language I’m using has relatively ok LSP, the codebase prevents usage - as it’s ridden with circular dependencies, macros, module aliasing and multi dispatch cast chains. Everything outside of syntax highlight it unusable.

Second: I noticed that assisted coding is like GPS assisted driving. I stopped internally understanding architecture of the code when using IDEs, this disconnected my mind from the code and at some point it started to feel like shoveling. Mindlessly spit out the code at let IDE handle the rest. That made me efficient at local change but unable to build up and see „big picture”. It bothered me to the point I decided to not use them anymore.

The third thing is that I don’t take „no” (coming from software) for an answer. I often get those specific needs for code search/refactorings that IDEs/LSPs refuse to work with. E.g. I need to search customized OpenAPI specifications and link it to a macros/generated code for browsing. IDEs/LSPs cannot help as it’s not idiomatic, so I customize. And customization is a loop. You customize, you learn how to customize better, you customize more etc.

When it comes to LLM-based aids I’m at point of minimum trust. I’ve experienced so many problems with that code that I rather just disable it entirely. Example? I was setting up Ticker based waiters for Go and then in one place I accepted `time.NewTimer` local-LLM snippet instead of `time.NewTicker` in infinite loop. It was 4 lines of code and looked VERY similar as in 3 functions above (that was before code reduction phase). For those unfamiliar: Go’s ticker ticks every N time. Timer fires once. One-shot-fire in infinite loop == lock. Took 4 hours to debug.

I’m not against using LSP/IDEs. They have their use (but for Pete’s sake ask your organization leaders before feeding proprietary code into ChatGPT). They don’t work for me, I feel dumber. Maybe I’d be more efficient but I don’t care. I do this job also for fun, and GPS kills the fun part for me.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#122

Post by PittleyDunkin »

thwarted wrote: post #82
csomar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Rust, so explicit imports are required. However, I fail to understand this point > You’ll learn where all the reference docs live for your language, libraries, and frameworks, and along the way you’ll learn more by actually reading the docs. With neovim/LSP, I have a key binding (Kg) that opens a small window within the editor with the rustdocs. Not only this is faster than going to the browser, typing the type…

> I don't really understand the aversion to using these tools No one is yucking your yum, it's not an aversion, it's that we don't need them, it never really occurs to us to use them, just like it never occurs to you to not use them. You make it sound like people who don't use them are fumbling and tripping over themselves and aren't actually writing any software.

> it never really occurs to us to use them, just like it never occurs to you to not use them.

This doesn't really make sense, either. How do you not consider the right tool for the job? Do you just use whatever you learned to code and never really bothered to consider that you might be more or less productive with different tools? LSPs don't always offer a productivity increase in all contexts—they seem to be mostly useless for dynamic languages like ruby and lisp and javascript—but I have a hard time imagining a programmer that couldn't benefit from them in the right context.

And they're just a straight-up improvement from iterative compilation and ctags, the latter of which never really worked very well in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#123

Post by mixmastamyk »

cjohnson318 wrote: post #65
SoftTalker wrote: post #61

I turn off autocomplete everywhere I can. Whether web searches, composing code, or anything else, I do not want the computer anticipating what I am about to type. I find it is often wrong, and always distracting. Yes, I try to learn the language well enough that I know the parameters of common functions. If I don't, I consult the docs. If I need to find the definition of a function in another file, I use grep.

There's nothing more annoying than putting my cursor on text, and then having a pop-up block that text.

Why does it block it and not the adjacent area?

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#124

Post by exe34 »

motorest wrote: post #100
enjo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you’ll learn that the speed of typing, even long method names, is not the limiting factor of your productivity. This is the fundamental truth that those pushing AI as a replacement for programmers miss (intentionally or not).

> This is the fundamental truth that those pushing AI as a replacement for programmers miss (intentionally or not). I think this blend of comment shows a good dose of ignorance discussing the role of AI as a replacement for programmers. It's not like PMs are suddenly seeing engineers vanish from software projects. It's that AI makes developers so much more productive that you only need a subset of them to meet your w…

> It's that AI makes developers so much more productive that you only need a subset of them to meet your work requirements.

my experience so far is that it takes away the upfront thinking and leads to a mess of code that I then have to sit down with them and try to work through.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#125

Post by thwarted »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #122
thwarted wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't really understand the aversion to using these tools No one is yucking your yum, it's not an aversion, it's that we don't need them, it never really occurs to us to use them, just like it never occurs to you to not use them. You make it sound like people who don't use them are fumbling and tripping over themselves and aren't actually writing any software.

> it never really occurs to us to use them, just like it never occurs to you to not use them. This doesn't really make sense, either. How do you not consider the right tool for the job? Do you just use whatever you learned to code and never really bothered to consider that you might be more or less productive with different tools? LSPs don't always offer a productivity increase in all contexts—they seem to be mostly…

My great-grandmother never used a mixer when making cakes or bread, long after mixers were available, and she was able to pump out treats and full meals without batting an eye, the best anyone ever had.

I don't have a problem with my "productivity", whatever that means. I'm not trying to write code faster, my own experience is that writing code faster leads to shitter code. I'm not hindered by my tools, and most of my programming time is spent thinking and understanding, and none of these tools have afforded me better thinking or understanding, and often times they get in the way of my thinking.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#126

Post by ww520 »

I use partial autocomplete. Emacs has the universal autocomplete that's not language specific but gets it right often. I do use LSP on languages that have support. For languages that don't have good LSP support, just search. Emacs has great project wide search.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#127

Post by xlii »

mckn1ght wrote: post #120
daltonpinto wrote: post #99

This question reminds me of the first time I met a blind programmer. I asked him how he managed to code, and he replied with something that stayed with me: a good programmer should organize software in such a way that every piece of code has a clear and logical place. The organization should be so intuitive that anyone could build a mental model of the structure and navigate it easily, even without seeing it. It felt…

Of course I agree that code should be organized logically, but I wonder if you could expand on what you mean. Do you drill down into finer and finer directories of detail, code units, classes and functions? I work with someone that navigates the tree structure of all our directories every time they need to look for something. It is painfully slow to watch and if you ask me, they produce fairly spaghetti architecture.…

> I work with someone that navigates the tree structure of all our directories every time they need to look for something

Counter example: I’m working with LSP dragging codebase where basic code lint takes 45s. My colleague takes a break after each change so that their code navigation starts working again.

Inefficient people are inefficient.

Not using LSPs isn’t guarantee of efficiency just as using LSP isn’t one. Different strokes for different folks - one has to accept consequences though (more automation means less presence, but it’s everyone’s own choice to make).

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#128

Post by thwarted »

tmountain wrote: post #112
thwarted wrote: post #80

The shell is my development environment. I open up new terminals and shells willy nilly. I find cli tools like find/fd/grep/rg are useful because I rarely need to find only the definition of a function, but rather other call sites too, to find out how it is being used. I think being surrounded by the code and being able to slice and dice it leads to a certain kind of familiarity that a tool that takes you right there…

I did it this way for about 20 years and recently moved to VSCode with its integrated terminal. It makes me feel pretty lazy and like I’m “cheating”, but there are some productivity benefits (LSP), and I’m less of a purist than I used to be. I maintained a blog about vim for 3-4 years, so I was pretty committed to that workflow back in the day.

I know about VSCode's terminal, and the few times I've used it seems like an afterthought, bolted on, to the primary function of the program as an editor and file navigator. I don't live in the editor. I live in the shell. The editor is a sub function of living in the shell.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#130

Post by devjab »

zaran wrote: post #90
jasonpeacock wrote: post #12

You should try turning off those features yourself for at least a month and see what happens ;) You’ll learn the answers yourself, much better than us trying to explain them. You’ll learn where all the reference docs live for your language, libraries, and frameworks, and along the way you’ll learn more by actually reading the docs. You’ll learn the value of good project organization and file naming, and explicit impo…

Autocomplete is more for discoverability than saving on typed characters, letting you rely less on documentation and more on the actual interface you're interacting with

I’m curious as how it lets you rely less on documentation. If you don’t know what you’re looking for then how will you know you chose the right thing?

The classic example of getting this wrong is probably C# developers using IEnumerable when they should’ve used IQueryable.

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