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Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#121

Post by Suppafly »

mcntsh wrote: post #5

Wage fixing is when multiple companies agree to set wages at a certain amount. Sharing compensation data across companies doesn't necessarily mean wage fixing. Company A can use the compensation data from Company B to try and compete better for talent. Not saying thats what it will be used for, but it's technically not wage fixing.

>Company A can use the compensation data from Company B to try and compete better for talent.

My company has done this in the past sorta indirectly, we were losing a lot of people to competitors and data like this is how they justified paying a bunch of us better so we wouldn't leave. I agree that it could be used to fix wages, but companies will always have to pay their best talent more if they want to retain them, whether that means paying them above what the data says or if it means inventing new job titles for them to progress into.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#122

Post by tensor »

nowyoudont wrote: post #82

I guess my issue with all the “it’s just info” arguments is this. Employers inherently have an information advantage in salary negotiations. A tool like Pave drastically increases that imbalance. How am I ever going to realistically negotiate salary vs a company that has this level of information (even during performance reviews)? And frankly something that worries me is, what level of data are they getting? If it’s…

Your salary negotiation point speaks more to a call for open salary data, which many people have been arguing for.

You're missing a lot with your second point though. If a company has excellent salary data and can put in you a band, then it also means that you have better grounds to argue for raises when you gain experience, or argue if you are underpaid, or even find jobs at companies who intentionally pay a higher percentile to market as a way to attract better talent.

In contrast, if we all operate 100% blind with no data, as many here seem to want, it would lead to all sorts of unfair wage situations with people doing equivalent jobs earning vastly different amounts. This sort of environment is biased towards more aggressive people who have strong social skills when it comes to negotiation. In fact, you see exactly this when companies choose not to buy data like this to set their bands.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#123

Post by calgoo »

teraflop wrote: post #110
failuser wrote: post #89

Uber and AirBnb are essentially illegal taxi and illegal hotel services. Remember taxi medallions? Remember zoning laws? Being illegal is not a showstopper for a startup because they are under a radar, being illegal is not a problem for a large business because they have enough power to not get prosecuted.

Anybody else remember that time YC funded an international smuggling operation? https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/backpack https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8199286

Looks like they are still active!

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#124

Post by digging »

yonran wrote: post #104
failuser wrote: post #89

Uber and AirBnb are essentially illegal taxi and illegal hotel services. Remember taxi medallions? Remember zoning laws? Being illegal is not a showstopper for a startup because they are under a radar, being illegal is not a problem for a large business because they have enough power to not get prosecuted.

Ironically for a question about antitrust price fixing you just named two incumbent government-sanctioned cartels (zoning and taxi medallions) that restrict supply and keep prices high. They would be illegal if private companies made them.

> They would be illegal if private companies made them.

Yes, that's kind of the main difference between government functions and private companies. Are you saying the very idea of zoning strikes you as a problem? Or are you trying to call out the bad implementations which strangle urban prosperity in the US?

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#125

Post by santiagobasulto »

Havoc wrote: post #101
failuser wrote: post #89

Uber and AirBnb are essentially illegal taxi and illegal hotel services. Remember taxi medallions? Remember zoning laws? Being illegal is not a showstopper for a startup because they are under a radar, being illegal is not a problem for a large business because they have enough power to not get prosecuted.

Eric Schmidt echoed similar sentiment in his recent interview. Basically do it, if startup fails then it doesn’t matter. If it succeeds then lawyers can sort it out.

Which makes total sense for consumers as well. If the startup succeeds is because consumers are finding value in it. Uber is the best example. Uber is ilegal only in countries with deep corruption where taxi unions can make legislators ignore their constituents. Uber (and any other car sharing app) is the best solution for me as a consumer compared to the traditional old school taxi service.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#126

Post by wing-_-nuts »

atrettel wrote: post #115

I have never heard of Pave before, but this just sounds like yet another copy of Equifax's "The Work Number" [1]. Basically, HR at many companies gives your salary and employment history data to Equifax, who then sells access to the information to certain parties with supposed need to access it, including potential and current employers and creditors. This report is likely one of the most invasive consumer files out…

I downloaded a personal report from the work number website and found to my horror that my employer was reporting every. single. paystub. gross and net, to equifax.

That felt like a huge breach of privacy. Given that equifax had already proven incompetent at keeping my data secure, I immediately sent HR a request to stop sending my supposedly 'confidential' pay info. They politely told me to kick rocks, so I went on TWN's website and froze that report so no one would be able to request it, and it will be a cold day in hell before I thaw it.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#127

Post by fwip »

yonran wrote: post #104
failuser wrote: post #89

Uber and AirBnb are essentially illegal taxi and illegal hotel services. Remember taxi medallions? Remember zoning laws? Being illegal is not a showstopper for a startup because they are under a radar, being illegal is not a problem for a large business because they have enough power to not get prosecuted.

Ironically for a question about antitrust price fixing you just named two incumbent government-sanctioned cartels (zoning and taxi medallions) that restrict supply and keep prices high. They would be illegal if private companies made them.

Many things a government does would be illegal if private companies did them. For example, prison, the draft, and taxes. The government is allowed to do it because we (as a society) believe it's better for the government to do these things than private individuals or companies.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#128

Post by t-writescode »

tensor wrote: post #106
grayfaced wrote: post #87

Hate it in concept (I can't speak to Pave specifically). Metrics are useful if the manager doesn't make hard targets, the data is good and the model is good. How do you model compensation packages? how does 20 days leave compare to unlimited leave? Are two companies with unlimited leave equivalent? When the managers have targets, they're incentivized to massage the data in their favor. So even if you're doing it righ…

No, you don't set salary bands based on race or sex. That sounds like it would be illegal. The way that bias creeps in is not from data gathering and setting salary ranges, it's from managers bias when they choose from the ranges for candidates. Setting company wide salary bands actually HELPS fairness in pay by providing objective ways employees can argue that they are underpaid if that's the case.

> it's from managers bias when they choose from the ranges for candidates.

It also comes in from how / if they choose to promote. If they take too long or if they just don't put you up for promotion / reject you, overall earning potential is weakened.

Do this enough times and it becomes a substantial reduction in life-long earnings, life-long title, respect, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#130

Post by darby_nine »

teraflop wrote: post #110
failuser wrote: post #89

Uber and AirBnb are essentially illegal taxi and illegal hotel services. Remember taxi medallions? Remember zoning laws? Being illegal is not a showstopper for a startup because they are under a radar, being illegal is not a problem for a large business because they have enough power to not get prosecuted.

Anybody else remember that time YC funded an international smuggling operation? https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/backpack https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8199286

Hell you could write off all of web3 with that sentence
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