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Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

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Re: Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

#121

Post by flangola7 »

dmak wrote: post #116

All I have to say is, as technologists, anyone who is criticizing ChatGPT and has not been criticizing Google is a hypocrite. It's well known Google tries to keep you on Google by parsing more and more information from websites and summarizing it. Ex, Wikipedia summaries, IMDB Scores, Review Stars, etc... If you have a problem with ChatGPT's "scraped data", then you have more fundamental issues with how the internet…

Google makes money when you click links and visit webpages. Instant info features are useful but do not directly bring Google money.

Re: Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

#122

Post by williamcotton »

faktory wrote: post #98
anileated wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a reason scraping is a legally grey area. > Web scraping is legal, US appeals court reaffirms First, the case is not closed. [0] Second, to draw an analogy, you can use scraping in the same way you can use a computer: for legal purposes. That is, you cannot use scraping to violate copyright, just as you cannot use a computer to violate copyright. The following being my conjecture (IANAL), there is fair use an…

Yes but that's a technical issue. I took the parent as making a philosophical point and responded in that spirit.

Wouldn’t it be nice if the people on these forums were not ignorant of both philosophy or the legal system before diving into incoherent conversations about both at the same time where the main thrust is the emotions they have about these tools?

Re: Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

#123

Post by tqwhite »

JoeAnon wrote: post #90

All I know is that while this isn't a new issue, the likes of ChatGPT has brought it to a head and made it more urgent. I am seriously reconsidering whether or not I want my writings to be available on the internet at all. I object to many of the uses, including this, they can be put to, and not publishing them online appears to be the only control available. For now, I have removed my existing works, both technical…

Finally, a good answer from a content creator. It is wrong to try it hobble and control all of us with ever more detailed laws. It is right to choose to participate carefully.

Re: Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

#124

Post by williamcotton »

stevesearer wrote: post #37
ericd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don’t remember the sources that formed their opinions, it’s just baked into the structure of their brain after reading, same for the model.

With search engines, it does feel like there was is a more clear trade of scraping access in exchange for web traffic. With ChatGPT the traffic benefit isn’t there, so it feels like it isn’t a fair trade. Google adding the context and data to their search results page also started blurring this trade making it unnecessary to click to the site the info was cleaned from.

How does someone site a source when they are using GPT to convert a box score into an entertaining paragraph about a baseball game? Or to convert a natural language command into a JSON format ready for downstream processing?

Re: Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

#125

Post by JohnFen »

dmak wrote: post #114
JohnFen wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A search engine directs people to the original work. This doesn't.

Have you used Google in the last 5-10 years? It's been slowly parsing more and more information from websites so you never leave Google.

I'm aware of that, but I don't really consider that a part of search.

Re: Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

#126

Post by detaro »

flangola7 wrote: post #121
dmak wrote: post #116

All I have to say is, as technologists, anyone who is criticizing ChatGPT and has not been criticizing Google is a hypocrite. It's well known Google tries to keep you on Google by parsing more and more information from websites and summarizing it. Ex, Wikipedia summaries, IMDB Scores, Review Stars, etc... If you have a problem with ChatGPT's "scraped data", then you have more fundamental issues with how the internet…

Google makes money when you click links and visit webpages. Instant info features are useful but do not directly bring Google money.

Google makes money when you look at and click ads. Visiting websites has a risk that it takes you to a site that does not show you Google ads.

Re: Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

#127

Post by BeFlatXIII »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #47
ergonaught wrote: post #13

Is it unfair for you to create content/products/etc after you have read and learned from various sources on the internet, potentially depriving them of clicks/income? People get internet hostile at me for this question, but it really is that simple. They've automated you, and it's definitely going to be a problem, but if it's acceptable for your brain to do the same thing, you're going to have to find a different ang…

Do you think just maybe there is a diffence here because humans need money to survive, and maybe we should have compassion for humans who could hypothetically starve or freeze or suicide or whatever because they have no money? Or is it just silly to care about people like that?

Teach the suicidal ones the noble art of suicide bombing and force societal change that way.

Re: Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

#128

Post by tqwhite »

gchamonlive wrote: post #40

I think chatgpt just exacerbates a problem that was already pervading the free internet business model, which is that Ad revenue model is outdated and exhausted without a clear alternative. It maybe was unfair to telephone operators when connection automation was implemented, as it made operators obsolete, but the older model couldn't scale, the same way reading text from source doesn't scale for human productivity.

Telephone operators. Definitely a nice update to the buggy whip metaphor. Thanks.

Also, I agree exactly. Advertising is increasingly useless. It's a tax on knowledge and it's gross. I can't wait for it to die.

I want to only pay for the stuff I use.

Re: Ask HN: Isn't ChatGPT unfair to the sources it scraped data from?

#130

Post by FoomFries »

tqwhite wrote: post #109

No. It's not. Also, it's not unfair if I study someone's work and then learn from it. Also, it's not unfair if you see my internet present and are inspired to do similar things. At some point participating in the internet means your stuff is going to be seen. I wear glasses to read web content. I don't think the glasses company should pay royalties for what I read. chatGPT is a tool that allows me to understand and u…

You’re conflating human work and machine work. I think that’s the real argument here - it’s fine to study someone’s work and learn from it as a human, because that takes impossibly more time and produces impossibly less total works than chatGPT doing the same thing.

I’m not arguing for either side, just pointing out that we need to carefully consider what rights AI should share with humans.

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