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Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

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Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#121

Post by drugstorecowboy »

modeless wrote: post #37

While we're piling on Doordash, how have they managed to produce a website that takes more than a second to respond to every single button press? Like even something as simple as clicking on the hamburger menu icon takes over a second to register. It's infuriating.

Thank you for saying this, I work in the web space and there is just zero excuse for how poorly it works, none. I don't believe any amount of tracking or anything else would cause things to be as slow as they are. I have often thought that it would actually be a little difficult to make something so slow without intentionally throwing in a few second delay.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#122

Post by craftkiller »

golergka wrote: post #88
alkonaut wrote: post #79

There are a few of these delivery firms now, has at least one realized the best niche to use should be “trustworthy”? E.g require any restaurant to have a brick and mortar restaurant with actual customers in it, or it’s banned. And requiring each such restaurant to have only one listed name in the app - which must be the same as the name on the sign of the physical restaurant. And clearly highlighting the age of the…

> E.g require any restaurant to have a brick and mortar restaurant with actual customers in it, or it’s banned. Why on earth would it matter to me as a delivery app user if I'm ordering from an ordinary restaurant or a dark kitchen? The only thing I care about is the food being good. And ordinary restaurants with actual customers in it often treat deliveries as something not really important.

Because ghost kitchens have less skin in the game. They can ship a subpar product and then whenever their reviews get bad enough, they just pick a new name and start over "fresh" as an exciting "new" restaurant. Brick and mortar restaurants have a reputation to uphold. Every time I've ordered from a ghost kitchen the food has been considerably worse.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#123

Post by datpiff »

quinnjh wrote: post #118
ironlake wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family orders take-out once a week. I used to go pick it up almost every time. DoorDash reduced my personal stress level by so much that the 20% service fee is an absolute bargain. DoorDash itself is predatory and harmful to local restaurants and worldwide labor practices. If you are a developer and a product manager asks you to implement a dark pattern, you should raise objections at every step of the process, im…

>If you are a developer and a product manager asks you to implement a dark pattern, you should raise objections at every step of the process In what way would this benefit the organization? Its great sentiment and I would agree, though i fear the reality is "The squeaky wheel gets replaced"

>In what way would this benefit the organization?

Who cares. Benefit the customers. Improve the world you live in.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#124

Post by silicon2401 »

ironlake wrote: post #109
silicon2401 wrote: post #107

The beauty of the food world is that if you're willing to choose a restaurant that doesn't use a delivery app, or if you're willing to do takeout, you save money and get a way better experience. The first time I tried using a delivery app I saw that the service fee was something like 20%, whereupon I laughed and never went back. I'd rather pick up the food myself and pay nothing more than the cost of food itself, or…

My family orders take-out once a week. I used to go pick it up almost every time. DoorDash reduced my personal stress level by so much that the 20% service fee is an absolute bargain. DoorDash itself is predatory and harmful to local restaurants and worldwide labor practices. If you are a developer and a product manager asks you to implement a dark pattern, you should raise objections at every step of the process, im…

> My family orders take-out once a week. I used to go pick it up almost every time. DoorDash reduced my personal stress level by so much that the 20% service fee is an absolute bargain.

In your case I'm glad you have an option that works for you. At the end of the day it's a case by case value analysis. I'm so viscerally against things like tips and service charges I'd rather just buy a frozen pizza from the grocery store and snack on that or do takeout than support something like doordash. I think a lot of people need things like doordash less than they think they do, so I like sharing examples of how that can be done.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#125

Post by trynewideas »

leros wrote: post #114
joshstrange wrote: post #111

I absolutely hate ghost kitchens, I think they should have to be labeled as such since they are often only a step at best above straight up scams. The 2 times I accidently ordered from one ("Oh nice, I didn't know we got an X nearby") the food has been below subpar and generally a huge disappointment. These days I really hate using delivery apps. You have to dodge the ghost kitchens which isn't easy (both the fake br…

There's nothing inherently wrong with ghost kitchens. A restaurant that only serves food for delivery is completely valid. The problem is when existing restaurants pretend they're a ghost kitchen. You order from a cool new chicken wing restaurant and get an order from Chilies. You order from a new pizza restaurant and get a box that says Chuck E Cheese on it. That's just purely deceptive. The other thing I see is the…

I was furious with ghost kitchens as soon as I saw REEF carts pop up in Portland even before the pandemic. These things were wrecking local food carts from the start, taking good walk-up locations to serve delivery drivers but not walk-up customers, hiring away cooks from restaurants during a labor shortage with typical startup overinflated wages that they cut as soon as the business hit any bumps, and data-harvesting information about people and neighborhoods from transaction data.

There is no good long-term result from ghost kitchens. The pandemic handed them a crowbar and they've wedged themselves into the landscape, and co-op/commissary kitchens are starting to push back, but now it's an infestation. There are fucking Wendy's ghost carts in my neighborhood now.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#126

Post by turkishmonky »

noja wrote: post #54

Say what you like about DoorDash, but who wants to go back to the days before it? Nowadays I can order straight from the app, simply pay for my pizza, the service fee, tax, delivery charge, and tip. Wait a little while and it comes straight to my door. Sure, now it costs a little more, but that money is going straight to the guys that deliver my food. That's great for everyone.

I've actually stopped using third party delivery services all together - the food is routinely cold, there are hidden fees everywhere, drivers are severely underpaid, many times you can't even order from the full menu.

Pizza and Chinese food delivery has been a thing long before doordash, and the quality of directly employed delivery seems to be much higher.

If a restaurant doesn't have delivery I'll just making a to-go order and go pick it up.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#127

Post by UncleEntity »

ironlake wrote: post #109
silicon2401 wrote: post #107

The beauty of the food world is that if you're willing to choose a restaurant that doesn't use a delivery app, or if you're willing to do takeout, you save money and get a way better experience. The first time I tried using a delivery app I saw that the service fee was something like 20%, whereupon I laughed and never went back. I'd rather pick up the food myself and pay nothing more than the cost of food itself, or…

My family orders take-out once a week. I used to go pick it up almost every time. DoorDash reduced my personal stress level by so much that the 20% service fee is an absolute bargain. DoorDash itself is predatory and harmful to local restaurants and worldwide labor practices. If you are a developer and a product manager asks you to implement a dark pattern, you should raise objections at every step of the process, im…

> DoorDash itself is predatory and harmful to local restaurants and worldwide labor practices.

And why would they change when people who know this still use their service?

All these Silicon Valley companies get away with this stuff because people value the convenience over the small businesses getting screwed over.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#128

Post by [deleted] »

datavirtue wrote: post #110
pipeline_peak wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with membership, I’ve never paid less than $300 on Costco Instacart. It’s a total joke, the whole point of wholesale is to save money. I’m far too lazy to do the math, but I think I save more money Instacart shopping Aldi than Costco

Costco is for people who's main activity outside work is spending money. It saves those compulsive spenders some money and makes them feel better about their problem.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#129

Post by albrewer »

dejawu wrote: post #20

It's insane. I once found a restaurant that had ghost kitchen'd itself EIGHTEEN times: https://i.imgur.com/7jwBlFG.png Some of the name variations are pretty funny though.

I think that was just the restaurant owner having fun while making sure every part of their menu showed up as a restaurant search result

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#130

Post by nonrandomstring »

scarface74 wrote: post #85
nonrandomstring wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting choice of word. Condescending implies talking down , whereas I am in fact talking up . Poorer nations spend much more time per capita on cooking. India averages 13 hours per week. The average American male spends two and a half hours per week (20 mins per day) in "food preparation". We all have equally "busy" lives, yet our labour is distributed in different ways. The 'first world' problems I am poking fu…

Why just focus on cooking? Do you give up other creature comforts that you can afford just because “people in poorer countries do”? Do you also farm or is that “beneath you”?

> Why just focus on cooking?

You're absolutely right. It would be silly to just focus only on cooking, much as I love it.

> Do you give up other creature comforts that you can afford

Absolutely yes. Instead of being enslaved to comfort I find that many of the things one "gives up" create vast swathes of opportunity and freedom in life. Walking instead of driving creates precious thinking time. I also find that being less 'available' by digital connectivity makes people value my time more and the more opportunity I obtain from fewer meetings - paradoxical perhaps, but it's sometimes odd how things work. Once you start "giving up" things it's amazing what riches the world offers up.

> Do you also farm or is that beneath you?

It's behind me. I lived in a village where we grew more than half our food and kept small livestock. Definitely miss that. But I was a kid, and so most of the hard work was done by my parents and neighbours. Obviously though, it set me up in life with a mindful relation with food. Never give names to the ones you're going to eat :)

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