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Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

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Re: Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

#121

Post by eikenberry »

intergalplan wrote: post #22
germs12 wrote: post #9

I've found a new level of self worth not being told when I have to be in a seat and when I'm allowed to leave it.

Fewer restrictions and less questioning of your use of time and your activities is typical the higher one observes the class ladder. WFH (absent remote monitoring tools, which take it back down below an in-person job without such tools) is like bumping up to the upper-middle, or professional, class, which most programmers are not in , ordinarily, socially speaking. ... and yes, a taste of class privilege is, frankly,…

Why don't you consider most programmers to be upper-middle class? The only explanation I can come up with is that it is based on the fact that most programmers are junior level due to the rapid growth of our industry and that junior level professionals haven't made it to the upper-middle rung yet.

Re: Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

#122

Post by dougmwne »

intergalplan wrote: post #106
dougmwne wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You nailed it. I may never have much class privlage, but I can emulate it with WFH, location flexibility and by cultivating small amounts of financial independence.

I truly think class-anxiety will make the freer kinds of WFH fairly uncommon over time, if it persists on a large scale at all, the more savvy managers get to it. I'm seeing non-programmer, bog-standard office drone friends get their work done in a couple hours and have the rest of the day basically to themselves (though no fault of their own, as they've sought more work in the past and found no-one to give it to the…

The relationship between employer and employee is founded on control and power. The employer is absolutely going to claw back as much of that power as possible post-pandemic. More spyware is a possibility. Even more likely is that most roles will switch back to on-site because control over the physical bodies of others is the most primal kind of power. One WFH insight I've had is that at home you are able to control your physical comfort to a much greater degree. You don't have to dress like they tell you, you have control of the thermostat, your chair, desk, keyboard, mouse, monitor, noise environment, air quality, odors, food, lighting, body position, and so on. This is an enormous bodily freedom and it won't be continued to be given without fighting for it. People go on about the social benefits of work, though I think back to Maslow's Hierarchy and that the social is less important if your office is noisy, freezing and your chair is causing severe back pain.

After 7 years of remote work, the times I have spent a few weeks or months back in an office have been an enormous shock. You always feel what you are currently missing most strongly, so I suspect once most people get back into the office, the enormous lack of freedom will weigh more heavily than they could have realized before experiencing it.

Re: Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

#123

Post by dougmwne »

dagw wrote: post #95
dougmwne wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your coworkers are not your family, unless they are literally your family business. Most people don't learn this lesson till the first layoff and they watch those warm and friendly relationships sublimate in an instant.

We're fully aware of this. That doesn't make those relationships any less 'worthwhile' while we do have them.

But the relationships are largely fake, constructed out of easy chit-chat, and often quite manipulative of the politically clueless and naive. I've had worthwhile relationships at work, people who have deeply influenced me, but it's not the norm and they are not my family.

Re: Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

#124

Post by dougmwne »

falcolas wrote: post #93
silicon2401 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the grown-up version of school as a substitute for parents. In grade school, school holds your hand and ideally teaches you how to be functional in society and in groups. In college, the school holds your hand through learning to be an independent adult with freedoms and responsibilities, but shielding you from real consequences: bad grades? Probation. Drugs or alcohol? Deal with the school, not the cops. The of…

Conspiracy Theory time: Companies know this, and depend on this effect. It keeps most of their employees "loyal" to the company at an incredibly low cost, since our social instincts are doing most of the work for them.

Management training pretty explicitly teaches you how to use your team's ego, desire for respect, need to please others, and need for acceptance and praise to push more work to be done and shape behavior.

Re: Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

#126

Post by intergalplan »

eikenberry wrote: post #121
intergalplan wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fewer restrictions and less questioning of your use of time and your activities is typical the higher one observes the class ladder. WFH (absent remote monitoring tools, which take it back down below an in-person job without such tools) is like bumping up to the upper-middle, or professional, class, which most programmers are not in , ordinarily, socially speaking. ... and yes, a taste of class privilege is, frankly,…

Why don't you consider most programmers to be upper-middle class? The only explanation I can come up with is that it is based on the fact that most programmers are junior level due to the rapid growth of our industry and that junior level professionals haven't made it to the upper-middle rung yet.

Class isn't just money, it's habits, attitudes, and the way others treat you, some of which are related to money, in a necessary-but-not-sufficient way. Besides, the vast majority of programmers in the US, let alone abroad, don't make enough money to sit in that class comfortably.

Upper-middle is "why of course our kids are going to a private prep school, what else would they do?" and "oh, where will you Summer? We're planning to just do Nantucket again" territory.

The dude who's made it at age 45 running a plumbing business is his own boss, has employees, has maybe triple or quadruple median take-home income because he's decent at business and works hard—but will still almost certainly not be perceived, or treated, by anyone, as "upper-middle". Not like a surgeon would be, almost by default, even in residency, or perhaps a junior investment banker.

My observation has been that programmers are mostly treated either as just expensive middle-class office drones, or pandered to as a substitute for actual upper-middle treatment. One key indicator, for office workers like us: where the hell are our private offices with doors that close? (yes, I know some places have them, but they're rare) Oh but we have foosball tables and catered lunch, so oh, look how respected you are, you little programmer.

We're probably closest to accountants, overall, in the social class we're treated as inherently belonging to and the class toward which admitting to being a "programmer" will drag you in most anyone's mind. Solidly, solidly middle.

Which, maybe, who'd give a shit, except that you actually do get treated better as upper-middle.

Re: Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

#127

Post by nunez »

dougmwne wrote: post #62
aliljet wrote: post #29

I may be the malcontent, but I'm tired of being at home. I want to keep the option of being at home, but I miss the community I found at work, I miss the non-work adventures our team had, and frankly, I think the new folks joining our teams are not nearly as integrated into our family as those of that came before the pandemic. I've worked remote for a decade and the option to work remote for 2ish days a week makes li…

Your coworkers are not your family, unless they are literally your family business. Most people don't learn this lesson till the first layoff and they watch those warm and friendly relationships sublimate in an instant.

I know they're not, but drinking, eating, partying, and working with fun coworkers is fun...

Re: Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

#128

Post by nunez »

falcolas wrote: post #79
aeone wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems somewhat overly general and pessimistic. Some of us develop strong support relationships with our colleagues on our teams, which results in conversations and activities that happen well outside of work hours or premises, and lasting friendships that remain strong even years after they've parted ways with the company that brought us together.

I had this happen exactly once, and that was because we were friends outside of work before we were colleagues at work. Every other place, all of my "friends" at work, even those I had outside contact with via Facebook or beers, went radio silent when I moved on. It's not pessimistic, it's reality. Exceptions that prove the rules, etc.

I think it takes both parties to maintain a connection. I'm part of several Slack groups with friends and acquaintances from old jobs. We aren't as tight as we were while working together, but we aren't radio silent either.

Re: Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

#129

Post by paulcole »

imwillofficial wrote: post #60
paulcole wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I intend to start a couple of for profit side businesses Not saying this applies to you, but a thing a lot of people are going to find out is how little they actually accomplish with the extra time. It's so much easier (and fun!) to dream about going to the gym, having a garden, and starting a business while stuck in traffic than to actually follow through and do those things.

I don’t know about that. Start small work up from there. I started with just a small walk each day, fast forward a few months and I’ve taking up ruck marches and lost all sorts of weight. I’m exceedingly undisciplined. I would encourage anyone to take a bit of that free time and take a step in the right direction.

> Start small

Yeah, I'm saying it's pretty clear most people won't even do this.

Re: Ask HN: Who doesn’t want to go back to the office?

#130

Post by AH4oFVbPT4f8 »

dougmwne wrote: post #62
aliljet wrote: post #29

I may be the malcontent, but I'm tired of being at home. I want to keep the option of being at home, but I miss the community I found at work, I miss the non-work adventures our team had, and frankly, I think the new folks joining our teams are not nearly as integrated into our family as those of that came before the pandemic. I've worked remote for a decade and the option to work remote for 2ish days a week makes li…

Your coworkers are not your family, unless they are literally your family business. Most people don't learn this lesson till the first layoff and they watch those warm and friendly relationships sublimate in an instant.

Where were you when I was 35 and let go from a company I had worked at for 10 years. I was invited to coworker weddings, birthday parties, helped them move, you name it. Soon as I was let go, I never heard from them again. That really hurt for a long time.
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