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Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

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Re: Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

#121
It is not you; it is the landscape of the programming world that has changed. Programmers get hooked on the craft because they can make stuff that scratches their own itches in a way that they are proud of. You could do that back when you thought it was adequate to make an adventure game that combined text with graphic images at a specific resolution that worked on your computer.

But then you became a student of the "right" way of doing things, and learned that it was suboptimal to just hard-code your strings into stacks of if/else blocks and had to figure out how to work them into a resource segment of your binary, and then along the way oh if you access them using the generated code functions that some IDEs will give you for those, then you get the ability to access them for different languages depending on...oh how DOES the runtime determine what language the user prefers? Hmmm let's look that up, so for versions 1.0-2.x it will look at the thread's current culture, hmmm how does THAT get set, and then what about 3.0+ okay let's just forget stupid translations for now, let's just make these graphics ready to work on different screen resolutions and retina displays so time to find out how to make SVGs and a UX library that will let you easily insert those when needed but oh the only good one is a full framework so you've got to refactor your whole code and provide a manifest file and hey what happens if I set this "Resolution" property to "UseNative" vs. "UseScreen"? What does that mean? Oh hello StackOverflow thank you and uh oh...I CAN use UseScreen but I will need to provide my own custom implementation of IScreenProvider which is almost as long as my original adventure game code, but thank you contributor, I can just copy your whole page of code into my own project. Since none of the names match my convention, I'll just spend the next hour renaming, retesting, and experimenting with which chaff I can cut out of this pretty-suspiciously-complicated class I just copied.

There is a certain class of programmer whom this kind of experience absolutely does not bother. I call them "zombies", but in the modern programming world, they are called "successful". They will tell you that they can easily do their job in a reasonable-length day, and have no desire to do programming projects at home.

But Excel, Doom, Linux, Mosaic...all these were not made by zombies. They were made by people like you, but in a time when there was no programming culture that made you worry that everything you were doing was wrong. It's just different now. That's probably why the world supplies 1000x as many programmers as back then, but contributes about 1/1000th the old output of really good stuff. Mostly we just provide the same stuff that was available 25 years ago, but on top of a different and more complicated set of foundational services.

Re: Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

#122

Have you thought about getting in to an architect or customer facing role? These roles are just as crucial to a business as programming is.

I've thought about it, along with security (not the cool kind of security positions mind you, but one that pays well). It all seems more dreadful than software. Most people I know of in these positions spend entire days in meetings.

Re: Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

#123

I personally think 90+% of the work in this industry is very boring. At this point many will say "well why are you working in this industry then"? Well I tried the alternatives, and they were way worse. I need money to survive in this world, and programming gives me the best bang for my buck. Most other industries require working longer hours doing less interesting work making less money with less freedom. If it's re…

Longer hours than IT? It seems the industry is known for working long hours to meet deadlines and of course on-call schedules.

Re: Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

#125
If you have the time or resources, try doing something that interests you in programming that doesn't have any "super cool feats of hacker ability" or commercial value. It might be more artistic or maybe just silly, but the value of expressing yourself for your own needs can help give you a bit of inspiration and feel back in the groove. Manipulating a computer should serve you first, whether that's with something you like or for your job.

Outside of that, be sure to take care of yourself. You're more than just your ability to type and watch a screen light up. Rewatching Kiki's Delivery Service helps in your situation too.

Re: Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

#126
post #60

I think you're dealing with more than one thing here, including maybe some unrealistic expectations. It's hard to have a hobby that is the same as your profession. A hobby often needs to function as a relief from the pressures and annoying bullshit of work, and an outlet for pent-up creative energy. When programming starts to feel like pressure and bullshit at work, programming at home will make you feel like there's…

Thank you for writing that, i think something like that is happening to me and it really helps to see others going trough the same thing, makes me feel less alone.

> It is easy for your standards to go up and impossible for your increase in capacity to keep up.

> It also sounds like one aspect of programming you enjoy is the ego gratification.

these are especially things i can relate very well.

Re: Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

#127

What stack of tools are you trying to use? Personally, I think we hit the peak ease of use with VB6, Delphi, and HyperCard It's all been getting harder ever since.

It really depends on the project. My most recent project has been an attempt to revive some old ISDN videophones I bought and integrating them with a more modern teleconference platform, so it involves all sorts of things, from whats basically a custom PBX to the video call app it will integrate with. For the core, PBX-like part, I was initially looking into Erlang, but after a while decided it might be easier to build on top of the JVM platform.

Re: Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

#128

Meta, but what strikes me about these type of Ask HN 's is : in 99% of the cases, the author does not participate in the discussion ( or answers raised questions ).

I'll reply to more this evening. For now, I'm picking off ones I think I can respond to without putting too much time into.

Re: Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

#129
I hope you can see that you're not alone based on the myriad responses in this thread. Always a great read whenever it comes up.

Burnout goes back to one's childhood and more specifically its effect on how one define's one's ego and the attachment to it. Young children do not have any real intuition about how to navigate life and are thus beholden to the influences around them. Through seeking approval from these influences (parents, teachers, or even fictional characters), children begin the process of simulating what those influences will say or think of them in order to gain some sort of reward (one's parent saying they're proud of you) or avoid punishment.

The healthy form of this is people who still allow their true self to come into being amidst all of these influences and mental simulacrum they may have adopted while growing up. The few people who are lucky enough to have the stars align for this seem to just effortlessly glide from success to success (at least in my own very limited experience), though that isn't to say they're always great human beings. For example, one of my relatives was a real maverick in the field of anatomy and had myriad interests and hobbies that he pursued to semi-professional levels, but it turns out he was almost completely uninvolved as a parent and was quite the angry drunk until a few years I was born and I never knew until he passed.

Due to the immense pressure we all feel to succeed, as measured by external markers of success (first grades, then degrees, then money, then your kids' grades, etc), I don't think most of us who feel burned out ever had the opportunity (or did and didn't recognize it / take advantage of it) to know our true selves and interests. Instead, we only learned how to fine-tune the mental simulacrum of our mental judicial panel (of our parents, mentors, random famous tech people we admire or envy) as a fragile mechanism to achieve an external definition of success, often while ignoring or avoiding our own interests.

When I feel stuck or burned out, it is always because this mental judicial panel I've constructed in my head is trying to convince me that I will "definitely fail" at some new attempt (e.g. learning $NEW_LANG or switching to some exotic Linux distro and rice the hell out of it) because the easiest path I have to pleasing these judges is to only do what I am almost certain will to garner their approval (e.g. by churning out one more feature for dumpster fire that is my project at $BIG_CORP) or literally do nothing at all, to take the safe route.

To me, this is the ego, this enmeshment with your True Self and this mental judicial panel cemented long ago that no longer is working, but is so hard to recognize much less to change one's relationship to this panel.

The dysfunction is that this panel would much rather conserve energy by keeping you stuck (as the cognitive load of learning something new is very high in calories). I don't think burn-out is a lack of motivation, but actually a perverse aim of a high level of motivation towards _not_ doing anything new. It's very hard to disbelieve one's thoughts and observe them, so the level of self-berating that goes on when one even attempts to think about trying something new is often deafening, even if you are genuinely interested in it.

However, this realization never did anything for me. Sure it's good to meditate and therapy is helpful, but the only things that helped are:

1. doing the smallest possible things I can do to step towards who I truly wanted to be. One minute of meditation? No problem. Writing "auto main() -> int { std::cout 2. teaching oneself to be okay with failure. After some time of success in coding / IT, the aversion towards trying new things often comes from an aversion to "failing" at it. If you think about it, it makes no sense that a web developer should just effortlessly be able to home-run a back-end Haskell app, but the enmeshment of one's ego can cause that unreasonable expectation to rumble around one's subconscious and almost always dissuade one from trying something new. The only way to learn this, in my own experience, is to try something in a new domain where you have little to no expectation of success and just _play_. Things that often work (at least based on reading this thread and many others like it) are either musical or, more often, some sort of physical craft (e.g. welding, woodwork, fixing up a motorcycle, easy embedded projects, cooking). What these will teach you is that it's okay to do something "good enough" for a first draft and that that's perfectly okay. The same mental voice that says "god I can't believe you don't understand the difference between an l-value and r-value. How stupid are you?!" will lose its power once you can truly appreciate the taste of a steak you may have under-marinated and over-cooked or a motor that sputters back to a smokey roar on the salvage jetski you're repairing despite the fact that it idles too high, has blistering paint and flaking decals, and is underpowered. These experiences help tamp down that voice of unreasonable expectations of "instant perfect" through the repeated small, undeniable successes in other areas where this voice is not as strong.

3. stop reading news that doesn't have a high chance of actually helping your day-to-day life. New tutorial on HN about something you're interested in? Check it out! Some twitter war about "California vs. Texas" as some high-profile figure / company talks about moving to Houston / Austin? Best to just close the tab unless you're actually into real estate or something.

4. If you're trying to read personal growth books / blogs to understand what's going on, avoid any resource that either a) doesn't teach you anything new or b) tries to make you feel good / inspired. These books are often written by people who put their stupid face on the cover and are trying to just sell vapid, repackaged advice in a terribly-written book as a way to get lucrative speaking gigs where they earn boatloads of cash spewing the same banal platitudes. These types of books tend to not only not teach you anything, but leave you feeling worse because you can't seem to "bootstrap" yourself out of burnout or depression like these books portray as an effortless act.

God knows I struggle to do all of these things on a regular basis, but these are the only things that have helped me amidst a sea of unhelpful advice (e.g. "join crossfit bro!", "go keto", "start doing BJJ", not that any of those are bad, but can often be used as an emotional crutch to avoid addressing an emotional problem) and loads of stupid self-help books I have found are useful.

Re: Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?

#130
post #105

The most pragmatic advice is to hang in there, create and reach your FIRE goal, and then quit and do your most passionate hobbies.

I am currently at a high paying job... This is my plan but I don't know if I can make it. It feels like such a privileged position but I see and hear of sudden tragedies and wonder, is this really something I am comfortable doing if my last day is tomorrow? I guess I wish we could have the best of both worlds -- freedom to pursue what is interesting and financial stability. It seems possible, but difficult...
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