If you don't enjoy doing research, you will be miserable doing a PhD. That's really all there is to it.
Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
121–130 of 258 posts
Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
#122Anyone have any thoughts on doing a PhD in later life? I don't need a career change or salary boost, but I'm very aware I've stumbled into data science (albeit very much on the applied side) without the right fundamental maths knowledge or research mindset. I read dozens of papers each week and even now I find them terribly abstruse. I suppose I'm contrasting this to just continuing on with online courses and books -…
It's what I'm doing right now: I started a PhD in computer security after 7 years working as a software engineer in the industry. All of that in Europe.
The answer to your questions is -of course- it depends.
As somebody said in the thread, not all PhD are created equals. The "structure, focus and community" you will get from a PhD will vary greatly depending on your topic / lab / team / advisors.
For me, it mainly brought two big positives and two culture shocks.
- First big positive, while a PhD in itself is not super prestigious, a PhD in a topic in hot demand is. I wanted to transition my career from a software engineer with light exposure to security problems to fully-fledged security expert; even if I'm not done yet, this part seems to go as planned.
- Second big positive, if you love the topic you'll deeply enjoy most of the days there, especially if you have had a career before: you probably have a better BS detector and more down-to-earth aspirations than a brand new master student, and be more likely to work as equals with your advisors. I love my typical days: I have a private office and basically have free reign on how to move my research forward in basically any direction I see fit. I should add that writing and speaking publicly is also a big part (40-50%) of doing a PhD, but it is something I happen to love personally. If you hate writing, don't do it!
- First culture shock was how most PhD students are set to work alone, with weekly discussion with their advisors only and next to no collaboration with other PhD students. Coming from hectic teams in the software industry where we would collaborate daily if not hourly, the lonesomeness of the PhD was striking at first, albeit not unappreciated (No urgent emails ? No pagers at 3am ? No manager interrupting my train of thoughts 3 times in the afternoon ?). I do think the best projects are born from collaboration and if you can find a team with exciting research goals collaborating together to reach them, this can be a PhD holy grail. While I love that I can go down a rabbit hole all by myself without asking for permission, when I'm stuck at the bottom, I'm stuck alone, and this was new to me. This requires discipline because when you're given a lot of leeway, your greatest enemy becomes yourself.
- Second culture shock, at times public research feels closer to prestige-based industry (like entertainment) than engineering. There are a few superstars and a lot of nobodies; You compete with everyone worldwide and everybody's CV is public; You'll go from feeling bad because somebody's research is ten times better than yours, then facepalm because somebody else's research is ten times worse than yours. There are not a lot of correlation between the quality of your work, your reputation, and your salary.
- I also should add that if you have a family, a PhD program may strongly encourage or even require you spend a few months abroad in other universities. For me it was not possible (raising a young child) so I made it clear with my advisors upfront and it went well. But overall it is very difficult moving forward in academia (which I don't aim to) without moving a lot geographically, which can be tricky if you have a significant other and / or children.
- Regarding the specific mathematics part of your question, I feel your struggle as my maths were super rusty going in. While a great joy of a PhD is that you can take a few hours / days to dive deep into a mathematical concept you don't understand, you do not have enough time to enroll into a full master in mathematics either. So you still have to pick your battle there.
I hope that helps. Good luck!
Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
#123I was in a PhD program, and left because I realized that I didn't really want to be there for another 4 years to finish after my Masters degree.
I think the problem with academia is that you are always around very intelligent people with PhDs, who have survived the very ruthless culling to make it into academia. From their perspective, a PhD is a great deal. In reality, a PhD is more of a mixed bag.
These are my observations from viewing the outcomes of my cohort:
The pros of a PhD: 1 - you're more likely to be working on research, 2 - you're more likely to lead an R&D team (and in some places it will be a requirement past a certain point if you want to climb the science management ladder), 3 - there's a small salary bump, 4 - people will tend to give your scientific arguments more weight than someone without a PhD, 5 - a PhD is a requirement for some positions at (a very limited) number of employers.
Cons: 1 - Those three letters next to your name will make you overqualified for a lot of very interesting jobs; 2 - there is a huge opportunity cost associated with getting a PhD; 3 - employers value practical experience far more than someone with more education; 4 - a PhD does not necessarily guarantee that you will find more interesting work, there are tons of people with PhDs who are essentially underemployed (by choice or by necessity); 5 - depending on your field, you may find that jobs at the PhD level are geographically limited; 6 - job search typically takes much longer.
Overall, there are only two reasons I would recommend someone get a PhD: 1 - they want to be an academic/researcher; or 2 - they want to spend 4-6 years studying a specific subject out of curiosity or intense interest.
Also, you can always go back. There are people who complete PhDs in their 30s, 40s, and 50s. The only thing that alternative students give up, is potentially the ability to enter academia, but even that is not always true.
Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
#124I have a Ph.D. in CS from the University of Washington. I'm glad I did it, but it's not for most people.
Academic research is like a marathon and the Ph.D. is like a marathon training program. If you don't want to run a marathon, you probably don't need a marathon training program. Yes, a marathon training program is an interesting and rewarding way to improve your running, but it's very likely you can find equally interesting and rewarding ways to improve your running that don't have the grind of a marathon training program.
I'd strongly recommend you read The Ph.D Grind at http://pgbovine.net/PhD-memoir.htm before you consider starting a Ph.D program. It's a good summary of what a Ph.D. experience at a top CS university in the US is like.
Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
#125I have a Ph.D. in CS from the University of Washington. I'm glad I did it, but it's not for most people. Academic research is like a marathon and the Ph.D. is like a marathon training program. If you don't want to run a marathon, you probably don't need a marathon training program. Yes, a marathon training program is an interesting and rewarding way to improve your running, but it's very likely you can find equally i…
I have a PhD in CS from the University of Washington too.. and all I can say is that yanokwa is an awesome person. :)
Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
#126In 2011 I was buying a Ford Mustang and I had to make the decision whether to upgrade to the V8 engine. It was $10K more (+ extra fuel) and the V6 already had 300+ horsepower. I just couldn't justify it. Eight years later, the car runs great, and it still even gets some complements. I never once needed any extra power! But when someone asks me, "Does it have the V8?" I have to tell them, "Naw, it's just the V6." At t…
In 2011 I was just finishing my PhD, so I couldn't afford a new car. At least my brain has that V8 now...
Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
#127An important point is that not all PhDs are equal. It varies a lot depending on the advisor, the subject, and the lab where it takes place. Some topics are quite "niche" and will not be useful in the industry. Some advisors don't really supervise their students (can happen in the best schools, with reputable professors). Check to see if you'll have the freedom to visit other labs/companies during your PhD. It's good…
I agree with this. The choice of advisor makes a huge difference in your PhD experience. If you get along well with your advisor, have mutual respect, and are working on interesting topics, getting a PhD is an exhilarating experience.
TL;DR: Pick an advisor you're excited about.
Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find it sad when people have no other metric of value other than $$$. "I can't sell this, what is this?"
I’ve always been curious about why people write “$$$” instead of “money”. maybe you could elaborate
I don't know, I guess it's a bit more cartoony.. The dollar sign is tightly connected to concepts like profit/capitalism etc
Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
#129CS PhD from Stanford in dynamic program analysis. Lost all my friends. Ghosted by companies for jobs directly related to my research. Everyone I knew who went directly into industry is doing way better than me. My salary has only tracked inflation. I sorely regret the decision and consider it to have fundamentally ruined my life beyond repair.
> Ghosted by companies for jobs directly related to my research This is unexpected. What's going on there?
If it's the same story as most other fields, the related jobs available require either:
1) No phd, because those either command a high salary, or are likely to jump ship for higher pay as soon as they meet qualification 2:
2) A phd and previous experience, because the job can't be trusted to someone fresh out of school without practical experience.
That was more or less the story from all of my circa 2008 friends who graduated with bio/chem engineering type degrees, trying to decide between grad school or entering industry, at least...
Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?
#130A PhD will probably make your life more "interesting" in the Chinese proverb sense[0]. At least that's the impression I get from a lot of PhDs. I don't have one myself, and I used to regret that, but not anymore. PhD work is hard, thankless, underpaid work that has little to no value in industry. Although it does open up opportunities to even more hard, thankless, underpaid work in academia. The one exception is Mach…
> has little to no value in industry. So what ? It has great value to history and humankind.
This is exactly how I decided to go.
If your goal is to maximize your lifetime income, academia is clearly not for you, but neither is the Peace Corps, the clergy, civil service, or anything like that. However, if you can afford to spend a few years trying to make the world a better, more interesting place then grad school isn’t a terrible option; you can always do something else afterward.