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Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

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Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#121

Post by solatic »

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #108
solatic wrote: post #99

> We have a strong culture, but it is widely felt by the rest of the company that the engineering team doesn't adhere to it. What do you mean "doesn't adhere to it"? Culture isn't a policy document that you can shove down people's throats and expect compliance. Culture is much more organic than that. > Complaints from other workers range from the decision they made to isolate themselves in their own building And ther…

> What do you mean "doesn't adhere to it"? Culture isn't a policy document that you can shove down people's throats and expect compliance. Culture is much more organic than that. Maybe "fit" is a better word? Point is, engineers are different and aren't too comfortable around the other employees. > And there are good reasons for that. Engineering requires focus and discipline and therefore usually has a very differen…

> Maybe "fit" is a better word? Point is, engineers are different and aren't too comfortable around the other employees.

But that's the point. Why do you need the same "cultural fit" between engineering and non-engineering employees? Why does that matter when requests from users should always be funneled through management (so that it can be triaged) and never go straight to the engineers (where it disrupts focus)? If engineering were internally cohesive and harmonious in your company, even if abrasive vs. non-engineering, this wouldn't be considered to be much of an issue.

> Problem is, the in-fighting and bickering is happening with pretty much the whole team.

So, divide and conquer. Split people up and put them with people they don't know. Subject them to strong authority in their new place and watch them fall in line. If they continue to be abrasive, you probably have cause to fire them, but that won't be the case in most circumstances.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#122

Post by rajacombinator »

From your posts, it’s clear that the founders and c level are either checked out, or out of their depth. Seems to be more the first one. Maybe the founders already had a nice payday, or were rich beforehand. No solution unless they’re fired or step down.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#123

Post by matfil »

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #120
cbanek wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Are your founders / leaders Engineers? > Actually, yes. They wrote the software that is currently used in production. > But they don't want to touch engineering with a ten-feet pole. One time they complained that engineering was taking too long to finish stuff and engineering demanded an apology. Engineers can get very touchy about code they write. It's kind of their baby. It sounds like the highest levels of mana…

> It sounds like the highest levels of management have written what is being run, and yet not want to seem to maintain it, or directly lead the engineering org. Well, in their defense: they have to, you know... run the company. Engineering was supposed to maintain the current software, but they (engineering) chose to deprecate it and make a new version from scratch. It is just taking way longer than expected, three y…

Engineering was supposed to maintain the current software, but they (engineering) chose to deprecate it and make a new version from scratch. It is just taking way longer than expected, three years and just a fraction of the original functionality.

This seems like a key issue. It's time to evaluate progress on the re-write and work out what to do next, with all options on the table (including re-focussing on the old software, or even starting afresh with a "version 3").

Are there any people in the engineering group who have been doing non-trivial bits of work on the old software? It may be worth cultivating these people and taking their opinions seriously, even if it ends up putting other (perhaps more senior) noses out of joint within the engineering group.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#124

Post by cbanek »

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #120
cbanek wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Are your founders / leaders Engineers? > Actually, yes. They wrote the software that is currently used in production. > But they don't want to touch engineering with a ten-feet pole. One time they complained that engineering was taking too long to finish stuff and engineering demanded an apology. Engineers can get very touchy about code they write. It's kind of their baby. It sounds like the highest levels of mana…

> It sounds like the highest levels of management have written what is being run, and yet not want to seem to maintain it, or directly lead the engineering org. Well, in their defense: they have to, you know... run the company. Engineering was supposed to maintain the current software, but they (engineering) chose to deprecate it and make a new version from scratch. It is just taking way longer than expected, three y…

Right, I get that they have to lead the company. But if other parts of the company are doing well, and engineering is struggling, and they have key insights into how the software was built, and why it was better, it would seem they would be in the perfect spot to lead the engineering team to a better place. They are the subject matter experts, and it seems like this app, whatever it is, is key to your business. And they previously made it successful. But you said they don't want to touch it with a 10-ft pole. This just doesn't add up.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#125

Post by thrwwyngnr »

matfil wrote: post #123
thrwwyngnr wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like the highest levels of management have written what is being run, and yet not want to seem to maintain it, or directly lead the engineering org. Well, in their defense: they have to, you know... run the company. Engineering was supposed to maintain the current software, but they (engineering) chose to deprecate it and make a new version from scratch. It is just taking way longer than expected, three y…

Engineering was supposed to maintain the current software, but they (engineering) chose to deprecate it and make a new version from scratch. It is just taking way longer than expected, three years and just a fraction of the original functionality. This seems like a key issue. It's time to evaluate progress on the re-write and work out what to do next, with all options on the table (including re-focussing on the old s…

One of the guys who left engineering takes care of the old software, plus some other new stuff.

He's indeed friendlier than engineering.

Might be a good idea indeed to integrate him with his old team, or maybe build a new team around him.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#126

Post by thrwwyngnr »

cbanek wrote: post #124
thrwwyngnr wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like the highest levels of management have written what is being run, and yet not want to seem to maintain it, or directly lead the engineering org. Well, in their defense: they have to, you know... run the company. Engineering was supposed to maintain the current software, but they (engineering) chose to deprecate it and make a new version from scratch. It is just taking way longer than expected, three y…

Right, I get that they have to lead the company. But if other parts of the company are doing well, and engineering is struggling, and they have key insights into how the software was built, and why it was better, it would seem they would be in the perfect spot to lead the engineering team to a better place. They are the subject matter experts, and it seems like this app, whatever it is, is key to your business. And t…

They tried once, but that was a year ago.

You're have a good point. Maybe after one year things will be different.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#127

Post by Aeolun »

EliRivers wrote: post #107
Aeolun wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This advice is so shockingly bad that I'm wondering if this is a deliberate spoof. This is the kind of management behaviour that erodes trust. Then what is the behaviour you are talking about here? I must be missing something.

Then what is the behaviour you are talking about here? I must be missing something. Picking someone almost at random to fire. Humiliating and ridiculing him publicly. Yelling and screaming and throwing a tantrum. Throwing his private property over the floor. Swearing at him throughout. That behaviour. That is shockingly incompetent behaviour that causes huge amounts of damage. Everything that "insiderknowled" said. H…

Ah fuck, I think I missed the fact it was dead, and thought you initially replied to:

> While I don’t think you should fire someone just to set an example, the scarcity of developers is precisely why you should fire those who are negatively impacting the teams and are unwilling to change.

Oh well. Yeah, I completely agree with your post given the original. Hard to think that it wasn’t a joke.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#129

Post by matfil »

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #125
matfil wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineering was supposed to maintain the current software, but they (engineering) chose to deprecate it and make a new version from scratch. It is just taking way longer than expected, three years and just a fraction of the original functionality. This seems like a key issue. It's time to evaluate progress on the re-write and work out what to do next, with all options on the table (including re-focussing on the old s…

One of the guys who left engineering takes care of the old software, plus some other new stuff. He's indeed friendlier than engineering. Might be a good idea indeed to integrate him with his old team, or maybe build a new team around him.

Make sure you understand why this person left engineering. "Integrating him with his old team" could be good, but could also be throwing him right back into the middle of something he was actively trying to get away from.

Re: Ask HN: How do you fix engineering culture?

#130

Post by thiago_fm »

thrwwyngnr wrote: post #73
gnulinux wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little surprised nobody is calling this out in this thread (assuming you're right). OP claims to be in "one of the biggest startups in our field" but they do not offer competent salaries/benefits? This is the problem and basically every answer in this thread is peripheral. Of course, money isn't everything, but if you're not paying your engineers a competent compensation, you should not expect your competent en…

Thing is, the salaries are supposedly competitive and engineers don't really complain about it. We had two raises and a round of promotions in less than a year, and people keep leaving.

If this was true, people wouldn't be leaving.

https://study.com/academy/lesson/herzbergs-two-factor-theory...

Please look here. It is funny you talk about being a MANAGER, I see a problem in hygiene(not the physical one) on your company. Give it a read on hygiene factors, know it well. Check if you are providing them. That is always the reason people leave in hordes. It is that simple.

To be honest, if a company was really paying good salaries, as you claim, respected people(working time/conditions), I would only leave if the management were clowns.

Are you one? I mean. I'm doing more management now and I know how people in management are afraid to seek into their own mistakes and defects and stick to saying like "Everything we do is great! I have no idea why we aren't successful", as doing that takes much less effort and courage than stepping up, finding out problems and really thinking through.

People here in HN have commented a lot of things, but you really negate basic things, such as salary. "salary is competitive", that doesn't mean anything... Most of the companies are competitive, if they are willing to give me a similar salary to avoid all the problems your company currently has, which you even affirmed, why would I still work for your company(and fix its problems) if you wouldn't pay me _above_ the market?

If you gave 2 raises in a year and can't say "we're paying like FAANG or above the market", barely "compatitive", it means your company 1 year ago was underpaying people and that, like a virus, has spread discontent in people. Those things are cancerous, even after they are gone, there is still the trauma. People don't like being underpaid, they feel like losers. That's why they move to other companies, even if you fix the problem.

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