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Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#121

Post by ainot »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #66
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The youngins say AI will solve this. They're wrong.

A human-like AI will sure solve this - because the only way for "common man" to make software without developers is to have something to do the work of dealing with complexity - figuring out the precise details, handling edge cases in a way consistent with the original intent, etc. But why wait for a powerful AI, if you can hire / enslave developers today?

> handling edge cases in a way consistent with the original intent, etc.

That's where we spend the majority of our time and always where things go horribly wrong in SciFi movies.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#122

Post by ainot »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #98
smoyer wrote: post #54

UML can be a great communication tool in specific situations but when it becomes a religion your organization will suffer. I'm older than most here, drank the cool-aid that predicted code generation and round tripping but spit it back up before the poison had a chance to set in. A bonus comment for the youngin's ... When you hear that some new system will allow "the common man" to write his own software without devel…

Code generation with 2D diagrams is a productivity killer. There is a reason why digital circuit design has shifted to use of HDLs. You can be far more productive describing behavior in text than shepherding boxes around on a schematic and slavishly working to make the interconnect look nice. With text, it's easy to make modifications. You have the power of VCS tools available to track changes. It's easier to partiti…

> There is a reason why digital circuit design has shifted to use of HDLs.

Yours is so far the most insightful comment I've read on the page. Have an up vote.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#123

Post by cs02rm0 »

I don't and if you're religious about it, I'm afraid I don't want to work with you (I accept the feeling may be mutual)!

Most developers don't have a complete knowledge of it and don't enjoy writing it; essentially I believe it's because they know it's not an efficient way of communicating ideas with other developers.

Modelling can be useful, but as far as I can work out something like gliffy with lines, boxes and little else is almost always sufficient. I'd imagine safety critical space or aviation systems and other niches are a different kettle of fish.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#124

Post by ainot »

taneq wrote: post #106
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The youngins say AI will solve this. They're wrong.

AGI will solve it. I think we've got a while yet before that becomes an issue for us devs though.

AGI sounds like fuzzy logic. We know how far that got. It will make some companies money though, it's snake oil. Computers even thousands of years from now will never be able to do what a programmer with 1 year of experience can do today, it's the advantage of being human.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#125

Post by ainot »

bbotond wrote: post #96
ausjke wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are the two communities are you referring to? one of them might be frontend developers(ui,js,html,css,etc)? what is the other one? I'm a low-level guy and learning some web coding these days, so I can tell the difference views on software between HN and other places.

My guess is the FP (especially Lisp) crowd.

The FP crowd is so vocal. Reformed math geeks who are trying to evangelize the world of programming to do things one way; their way.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#127

Post by EdSharkey »

As a communication tool I've sold work with a really busy, boxy class diagram where the focus is on the connections and not a complete representation of all the properties.

Being able to stand in front of a big screen and point to and talk about connections and cardinalities magically draws questions and comments out from the business stakeholders. That feedback helps me get the model to a place where it generally matches what the business wants.

Keeping that diagram alive and updated as we implement the system has served as a super valuable tool for communication with other teams that need to touch the model. Everyone continuously hashes out and agrees on common terms, ownership, etc.

The worst defects come from requirements or design defects. I'm not advocating for giant up-front designs with hundred+ page software design spec docs. But, paraphrasing Uncle Bob, "'no up-front design' doesn't mean no design." There has to be some design of some sort and some documentation of the system being developed.

I think the time to stop diagramming/designing is when adding more detail won't communicate anything more about the model or business process in casual conversations about the system. That's a very subjective line to draw, but it helps me to think that way.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#128

Post by flurdy »

No, and yes. I, and my last few places I worked all use sequence diagrams, especially when dealing with a new feature with a microservices based architecture (private and gov clients). But very basic usage. I do spend a lot of time tinkering with diagrams in http://www.websequencediagrams.com both for work and hobby projects.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#129

Post by lpasselin »

I am on a 5 min break of working on a school project where lots of UML diagrams are required. I was finishing our last required sequence diagrams right now!

Although this is a small team project, making the diagram takes at least 5 times the time needed to write the code. In our team of 4, 3 of us will not need to write code.

I understand it is good for management but I hope I will never be required to do this ever again.

Re: Ask HN: Do you still use UML?

#130

Post by mannykannot »

Back in the late 80's, there was the CASE (Computer-Aided Software Engineering) fad, when it was thought diagrams could replace code.

The idea that a picture is worth a thousand words is not applicable to most of the words one would use to discuss systems designs. It is very difficult to discuss purpose and intent, or to present arguments that the design satisfies requirements or observes constraints, to justify choices, and say how things work, through any sort of diagram, let alone only those of UML (use cases are something of an exception, as they are not actually diagrams.)

On the other hand, diagrams are a very useful adjunct to these activities, and are widely used in informal discussions. This is broadly in line with how diagrams and pictures are used in other technical and scholarly fields: for example, maps, statistical charts and pictures of places and artifacts are very useful in history articles, but are never the full story.

Furthermore, I can usually write a thousand words faster than I can draw the corresponding UML diagram. The UML I am most likely to use will be machine-generated from code and will be used as a supplement to the text I am writing.

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