Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#111

Post by oaiey » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:51 PM UTC

nkmnz wrote: post #95

itqwertz wrote: post #23

Get that interview process fixed ASAP and let this lemon go. Don’t be surprised if there is pushback from non-technicals if this hire checked a bunch of boxes for other departments. A good strategy would be to have them be a lead on a minor project that requires technical chops and communication. Ensure there is a daily standup and grind them on details and timelines. Get them some juniors as direct reports to expose…

This proto-sociopathic behavior is the direct result of European employment law. It's disgusting.

It is not. You would fire the person in the trial period or after a year.

What is expensive in most European jurisdiction to fire a permanent contract after the initial trial period/first year contract without wrongdoing. But that is typically after a year or more.

The reason here is that they are trying to be a employer which focus on personell development. Which is contradictive to capitalism and obviously they have not figured out yet, how to deal with situations like this.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#112

Post by teitoklien » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:51 PM UTC

jenscow wrote: post #80

teitoklien wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US is an exception in terms of at-will employment. In most other countries you cannot fire people just for reasons like this. In other countries people have to resort to backhanded ways like the parent comment mentioned if you want to get someone off the payroll.

That's "constructive dismissal", which is not allowed. Firing for "performance" is ok in the first year or two (country specific)

> "constructive dismissal", which is not allowed.

I agree, but a lot of things that are not allowed but happen frequently.

Doesnt matter what the law says is illegal, unless its enforced.

Im not saying its a good thing to resort to such toxic measures.

Parent comment said it is evil and should not be done, I just mentioned the reality that in most countries its one of the classical tried and tested method to bypass employment safety laws that almost rarely gets backlash.

I myself dislike such toxic behaviour, but just stating the reality of what happens.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#113

Post by JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:51 PM UTC

monotux wrote: post #60

solardev wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Europe handle it?

You can fire people in Europe too. In a lot of cases you have a six month trial period in which the employer or the employee can cancel the employment without any notice period. After six months there is a notice period from both parts, typically one to three months.

Most companies in France have a trial period of 3 or 4 months which can be doubled to "make sure that everything is right." Which means that companies have to 6 or 8 months to fire new guys.

I guess it’s the same amount of time in other countries.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#114

Post by JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:53 PM UTC

oaiey wrote: post #111

nkmnz wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This proto-sociopathic behavior is the direct result of European employment law. It's disgusting.

It is not. You would fire the person in the trial period or after a year. What is expensive in most European jurisdiction to fire a permanent contract after the initial trial period/first year contract without wrongdoing. But that is typically after a year or more. The reason here is that they are trying to be a employer which focus on personell development. Which is contradictive to capitalism and obviously they hav…

Entrapment is sociopathic.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#115

Post by whatsakandr » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:53 PM UTC

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #100

whatsakandr wrote: post #29

We hired a guy like that. Clear deficiency in hiring process. I wasn't in management, but letting the mistake fester won't make it better. Additionally, if someone is that "senior" and good at interviewing, but not at thier job, it's unlikely they will come up to speed at a reasoble rate. Thier primary skill is interviewing, they might not be able to learn the skills they need to succeed. Let him go!

I'm wondering if it's possible, given the current job market climate, to spend way too long trying to get a job, in multiple rounds of interviews, and basically pigeonhole oneself into passing the interview but losing other skills that are pertinent to performing and keeping the job. The stories I keep hearing, about companies ghosting the applicant after 5-6 exhausting rounds of interviews, are scaring me, to be fra…

My experience with hiring is it's better to error on the side of not hiring. If you make a bad choice, unless it's a flagrant fraud, you're going to spend a couple of months trying to get them to be productive. That's way more time then doing a couple more interview. And firing is risky from a legal standpoint as well.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#116

Post by geor9e » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:53 PM UTC

Consider firing your HR department too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKL47LUeHYM

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#117

Post by goodluckchuck » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:53 PM UTC

If you were wrong then, maybe you’re wrong now. What are these basic skills and can you measure them across the new hire and the existing devs? In order to hire better next time, you’ll need to be able to apply this sort of screening at the front end. If you can’t, then maybe it’s a management / utilization issue.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#118

Post by ewoodh2o » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:54 PM UTC

UseofWeapons1 wrote: post #9

As you consider the decision to let them go, consider the impact on other people in your work place too. Other developers notice someone like that underperforming and getting overpaid, and it can hurt the good climate you aim for. It may feel bad to fire them, but it may be worse to keep them.

You absolutely need to consider how the rest of the team will interpret you actions. Most probably know this individual is underperforming already. Teammates usually have a sense before the manager does.

But the way you handle it will also be observed. Others need to know you won’t just fire someone on the spot if performance doesn’t match expectations. Life happens, people have personal life issues that may occasionally require attention, and you don’t want everyone else assuming they are one bad sprint away from unemployment.

In most of the US at least, start with a performance improvement plan. Ideally one crafted with HR’s help. It should lay out specific expectations for a Senior Engineer, and call for immediate and sustained improvement. Use that to initiate a conversation and clearly lay out that they are not meeting expectations for the level at which they were hired. Present meeting those goals as a requirement for continued employment. You may also present a severance option here if you want them to have an out.

This makes it clear to everyone that you treat all employees with respect, offer a clear warning, and then so long as you expectations in the PIP are clear, it’s a lot cleaner if you end up needing to part ways a week or four weeks later.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#119

Post by red_admiral » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:54 PM UTC

Even in European countries with strong employee rights, the typical contract is allowed to have a 3 month or so "probation period" during which either party can terminate at short notice. I guess this is one of the situations that clause is meant for.

Once you take into account not only the net negative you're getting from your recent hire, but the effect on other employees too, the rational decision is to let them go. Think of it this way: intrinsic motivation and good climate for everyone else means not having someone higher paid but clearly less competent on the team.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#120

Post by brokencode » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:55 PM UTC

bialpio wrote: post #84

throwaway173738 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 100%. Whether I would fire someone depends on why I thought they were underperforming. You should consider the first month on the job a work sample and if someone isn’t measuring up within the first week tell them what your expectations are and that they’re not being met. If they don’t remediate within a month let them go. I kept someone for too long once and people on an adjacent team didn’t want to get stuck w…

How do you reconcile this advice with the fact that in both places I've worked at, the expectation was that just the onboarding takes significant amount of time (up to ~0.5yr)? Even if I personally didn't need that much time, it was nice to know that it's available -it's not easy to get into the grind and catch up to others that already have all the institutional knowledge when starting a new job.

You shouldn’t need to be onboarded to basic development skills when you come in as a senior developer as the OP is saying here. Institutional knowledge specific to each company takes time to learn, but many dev skills should be directly transferable.