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Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

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Re: Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

#111

Post by TheCapeGreek »

financltravsty wrote: post #109
bruce511 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an employer, I'll push back on this. I'll start by saying that if you want equity, then by all means seek out jobs that provide equity. In mu experience, people don't want equity as much as they want a living wage. They want a proper salary, every month, not some mythical payday in the future. If you can find a place that does both, thats fantastic. Incidentally if you have meaningful equity that comes with a bunc…

I’ll push back on everyone here: if you’re looking for a stable living wage, you’re a fool — especially in tech. The economy is cyclical. Tech runs on speculation and (used to) on lax tax rules. Likewise, hiring is based on asinine processes, asinine vogues of fashion, and asinine practices. At any moment in time you could be made persona non-grata in tech. If you joined tech for the passion of if, and you’re not ind…

Well put.

Although, I'd say this view, much as I share it, makes it harder to find companies to work for. Especially in a tougher job market like right now.

I'll do conversational technical interviews all day. Leet code and 6 interviews unrelated to the job, hell no.

It's cynical, but once you've been through the meat grinder with layoffs, obsessive VC overgrowth and unfulfilled promises, I don't see another way so get to where I want to be financially without either letting go and becoming a hermit or as you say "enter the capital class".

Re: Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

#113

Post by saiya-jin »

geuis wrote: post #104

There's an old aphorism that goes something like "don't get loans from family". I consider people worth calling friends to be similar to family. I also don't have close family connections at that level. Guess that means I put more importance on friendship. I've had the experience one time of cofounding a company with a friend. It didn't end badly, but it wasn't ideal. I realized pretty quickly I was going to be solel…

Another one - if you want to lose a friend, lend him/her some money

Re: Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

#114

Post by medo-bear »

I believe working for a friend is much harder than working with a friend. On the employee side, you now have to respect your friend as a leader (so it will no longer be a friendship on equal terms) and not expect any beneficial treatment as that will reflect badly on his relationship with other employees. On the employer side your friend now has a greater responsibility for your financial stability, which is quite stressful because there will be a greater emotional attachment to this responsibility. My advice is: if you want to help your friend out offer them a casual liberal contract until their business gets rolling. If you want to work for your mate because you have trouble finding another job always remember that your friend is doing you a massive favour and try your best to be a model employee. Otherwise do not do it, and retain your friend as someone you can complain to about your asshol boss who is not your friend :)

Re: Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

#115

Post by kimi »

I had the opposite experience; hired a few friends for my company over the years, and it didn't end well. Some were very had for me to terminate, though they were having a net negative result on the company.

Now I have a need for a profile that would likely match the one for my best friend when we were 15 or so, but I don't want to risk that as well.

Re: Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

#116

Post by geraldhh »

xrd wrote: post #31

It definitely ruined a friendship of mine. His startup was making insane amounts of money. He offered me a position, then his business priorities changed and forced me into a poor role with no long term prospects. I struggled in that new role and he noticed that. He then terminated our agreement two months early. There are reasons he's right about what he did and there are reasons I'm right about being upset about it…

> As it was it left me scrambling with three small kids.

you did not mention whether this early termination was communicated beforehand.

nevertheless this person probably never was your friend. sry

Re: Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

#117

Post by wahnfrieden »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #71
Prcmaker wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fine opinion if you can afford it. I'll take a wage any day of the week, equity is nice to have once I know I can eat this week.

There are well trodden schemes for offering both over time in worker owned cooperative structures without sticking to a wage that is kept as low as the market will bear for your role (and may leave you finding you can’t afford the wage either for many) Regardless it is possible and common to be taken advantage of even with your basic survival needs covered for you

A wage btw is no help after a lay-off and job security is pure gambling in cycles like our current one

Re: Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

#118

Post by fauigerzigerk »

jongjong wrote: post #94
randerson wrote: post #62

Poorly. I did all the work while my friend goofed off and ran personal errands all day. The friend eventually made a fortune selling their equity and retired young. I did not get awarded the same privilege. We no longer speak and I still get angry when I think about that. On the other hand, I have made good friends through the workplace who I would start a startup with in a heartbeat.

Such situations make me furious, but not so much at individuals as at the system. Getting equity in a startup is ridiculously high friction. It's often been a deal breaker for me; not because the founder themselves had personal objections, but because of bureaucratic nonsense such as; it was too much hassle legally or other large investors wouldn't like it, etc, etc... IMO, it should be illegal to launch a limited li…

> IMO, it should be illegal to launch a limited liability company/corporation and only allow specific people to buy shares. I object to the idea of incorporation and limiting directors' liability to begin with but since it is allowed, at the very least, it should be a requirement under the law that the shares be on the open market such that anyone who wants them can buy them and resell them at any time.

I don't understand how this could possibly work.

If I start a company on my own and I provide all the equity then I own all the "shares". What would it mean for those shares to "be on the open market"? If I'm not selling them then no one can buy them.

And if it was a trivial low-regulation thing to create shares and sell them to the public, it would undermine the entire body of regulations they put in place to prevent scams and ensure transparancy.

>The current system is a scam. They can select exactly who gets to ride the ship to the promised land. That's completely wrong, discriminatory and evil.

No, "they" can not select who gets to ride the ship to the promised land. They can only make an offer that others are free to accept or reject.

If I think that my labour makes a huge difference to the success of a company, then I'm not going to provide that labour unless I get a huge chunk of the company. It's a negotiation. I can just walk away and start my own company.

And by the way, if you got your wish and limited liability was abolished, then all shareholders would be on the hook for any and all debts the company cannot pay (jointly and severally). That would include employees paid in shares. It contradicts your desire for broad share ownership.

Re: Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

#119

Post by c16 »

I worked at a startup with ~7/8 friends and made many more while I was there. One or two of them definitely made me question my worth as an engineer while working there (read: poor management skills (edit: awful management skills, they were eventually moved out of managing)), but I don't think it ever affected our friendship outside of work.

In the end there was a big restructure post investment round and a lot of people who had been there for a long time felt it was right to move on (or were heavily suggested to move on, or pushed out). I left a few months after that on very good terms to keep the good memories good, and joined another friend at another startup which I really enjoyed.

My mentality during that time was: Do your best work, learn as much as you can and be agreeable - you might be friends, but there is still hierarchy in the business which you should respect. Outside of work, you be you. It worked well for me. YMMV.

Re: Ask HN: Those who've joined a friend's startup as an employee, how did that go?

#120

Post by geraldhh »

lukan wrote: post #103
qup wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I communicate with my friends. I expect them to tell me things like this.

What if they suddenly fear, they will loose their job, if they are honest with you?

low self esteem can kill most relationships
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