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Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

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Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#111

Post by fphhotchips »

mediumdeviation wrote: post #78
nmaley wrote: post #27

The Robodebt scandal in Australia didn't spill over to violence in the streets, but it came close. Robodebt was a debt collection system introduced by the Federal government to recover supposed overpayments of social security. It was flawed at every level, including software design, and resulted in nationwide protests. see https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6037228/robo-debt-cen...

Similar but worse, the Horizon scandal in the UK where bugs in Fujitsu stocktaking software sent post office workers to jail and ruined lives because administrators took the software's side when it found accounting shortfalls https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56718036

I would hesitate before being so quick to say "worse". Robodebt resulted in suicides and primarily targeted the vulnerable. I would suggest that both schemes just be labelled unconscionable.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#112

Post by akira2501 »

smallerdemon wrote: post #71

Having worked in IT supporing doctors, nurses, scientists, and academics for the last 23 years, in all honesty, it doesn't matter what they would have chosen it would have resulting in a percentage of them complaining. Doctors like change that they control and understand, such as research leading to new treatments and improved patient outcomes. They do NOT like having their workflows challenged, though. They have ver…

> What doctors LIKE are the ones they get used to in their residency, fellowships, and first years in practice.

From observing a family member implement these systems, I'd say that what doctors like is an administration that's willing to listen to their specific complaints and then get the changes or some subset of them implemented in the system. There's often a fair amount of customization that can even be done at the customer level to achieve this.

Seemingly, too many institutional administrators fall in love with the sales pitch and then are demoralized into acrimony when their doctors don't just automatically feel the same way on the roll out day.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#113

Post by npongratz »

emmelaich wrote: post #105
meandthewallaby wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the software development profession could spend a long, long time doing some self-reflection about this one. It's eloquently stated, and something a lot of developers could learn. Too many times, I've seen overly restrictive inputs cause users to hate and distrust the software. Ironically, overly restrictive inputs cause users to think that the software doesn't properly understand the domain, which…

I agree! But what would you put in the database? A NULL? A special fuck-it value?

A trigger on a timer that notifies the fuck-it-provider (email, calendar entry, text message, whatever) that they need to go back and enter a value.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#114

Post by matheusmoreira »

jakear wrote: post #108
matheusmoreira wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. These messaging services essentially place doctors on call at zero extra compensation.

“On call” has a precise, intuitive, definition that “receives messages and can respond to them at-will” does not fit.

Can respond at will? Yeah, about that. I have no doubt the patients using the doctor messaging feature will expect a prompt if not immediate answer. The system is definitely imposing an unpredictable work schedule on doctors with no compensation. If you're expected to respond to patient messages, you can't go do something else with your life.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#115

Post by bsagdiyev »

soared wrote: post #17

Old school RuneScape is an mmorpg where each game update goes to a vote, and if it doesn’t get 75% approval the updates are not worked on by devs and don’t get released. The community feels a strong ownership and connection over the game. So much so that when the development company (Jagex) makes a wrong decision, it’s common for users to “riot” in game. They go to a specific world, at a specific town, place down spe…

Interesting way of doing it. I haven't played official RuneScape in a while but glad to see some input is taken by the devs.

Game I learned to code on/with, writing java bots around 2001 time frame. Involved in the big dupe, fun times. May need to see how much has changed.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#116

Post by wccrawford »

PubliusMI wrote: post #89
electriccatblan wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: My Epic experience is around a decade old. I never saw a riot, but I definitely saw providers who hated Epic when it was installed. As in people literally screaming at the top of their lungs at IT nerds. I saw a few contributing factors: 1. Epic supports making all the technically-mandatory-but-not-mandatory-if-you're-in-a-hurry data actually mandatory, so providers have more typing and less ability to ju…

>technically-mandatory-but-not-mandatory-if-you're-in-a-hurry :/

Right? When aren't medical professionals "in a hurry"? They've always got a ton of things to do and not enough time for all of it.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#117

Post by shigawire »

jdminhbg wrote: post #107
meandthewallaby wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the software development profession could spend a long, long time doing some self-reflection about this one. It's eloquently stated, and something a lot of developers could learn. Too many times, I've seen overly restrictive inputs cause users to hate and distrust the software. Ironically, overly restrictive inputs cause users to think that the software doesn't properly understand the domain, which…

I highly doubt the developers have anything to do with this in this case. The people requiring the inputs are managers who are responding to regulators and insurers. They're not going to buy software that has a Fuck It Button that allows workers to skip data entry that could cost them money, time, or lawsuits.

At Epic there aren't really product managers. The devs mostly set the projects, design, scope with input from clinicals/sales (a very small group).

So it is interesting to me because most of the design choices - both good and bad - are made by the devs themselves with input from area experts in the aforementioned group, QA, and customer implementation/support.

Some might argue there would be better results with someone who is not the dev managing the product more. But there are pros as well as cons.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#118

Post by fomine3 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #102
zajio1am wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much same argument could be said against checklists ('paper controlling humans is a violation of basic human dignity'), but it is a thing that consistently improves outcomes in medicine. In general, it is restricting autonomy in order to improve consistency and quality.

> Pretty much same argument could be said against checklists No, the same argument most certainly cannot be made against useful patient safety tools like simple checklists. Not only are they useful, they are simple and integrate seamlessly with pretty much any workflow without obstructing them. Meanwhile poorly designed software can go so far as to actively impede the work being done which I have no doubt is the case…

Bad paper forms also makes things bad. It's not only the software's problem but the system's problem that human make. Valid criticism for current software system is that it's hard to improve without programmers who work for it.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#119

Post by xani_ »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #49
soared wrote: post #17

Old school RuneScape is an mmorpg where each game update goes to a vote, and if it doesn’t get 75% approval the updates are not worked on by devs and don’t get released. The community feels a strong ownership and connection over the game. So much so that when the development company (Jagex) makes a wrong decision, it’s common for users to “riot” in game. They go to a specific world, at a specific town, place down spe…

I’m writing a book about Why We Play RuneScape, and the evolution of democratic updates is one of my favorite topics.

No post body was provided.

Re: Ask HN: Have you ever heard of users demonstrating against software?

#120

Post by permo-w »

quacked wrote: post #13

Secondary to the question, but I live right by the Epic campus and use the Epic MyChart platform to communicate with the University of Wisconsin health system. It is phenomenal as a patient; I can handle all billing, message any doctor I've seen, view test results as soon as they're uploaded, etc. Recently I saw the results of some bloodwork in the ER before the nurses had time to come and tell me about it. (The UI/U…

I don’t mean this to sound passive aggressive; I’m genuinely unsure: are you using “UI/UX” correctly here? if you’re getting exactly what you want from it, is that not good UX?
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