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Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

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Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#111

Post by joshstrange »

I absolutely hate ghost kitchens, I think they should have to be labeled as such since they are often only a step at best above straight up scams. The 2 times I accidently ordered from one ("Oh nice, I didn't know we got an X nearby") the food has been below subpar and generally a huge disappointment.

These days I really hate using delivery apps. You have to dodge the ghost kitchens which isn't easy (both the fake brand name ones and the fake made-up restaurants like "It's just Wings", "F*cking Good Pizza", and "Super Mega Dilla"), you have to compare the DoorDash/GrubHub/UberEats prices to the restaurant's app prices to see which it the better deal (sometimes even if they use DoorDash for the actual delivery it's cheaper to buy through their app), and unless you are paying for the monthly/yearly subscription you can get fleeced on fees even after wading through all the bullshit to find real restaurants that have real storefronts in town.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#112

Post by Balgair »

Aside: The piece on DoorDash and Pizza Arbitrage is always a great read [0]

Not sure if it's still working out for A.J.'s Pizza, but that it did at any time should tell you everything you need to know about DD's internal structure; there is no there there.

[0] https://www.readmargins.com/p/doordash-and-pizza-arbitrage

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#113

Post by joshstrange »

gsk22 wrote: post #50
dejawu wrote: post #20

It's insane. I once found a restaurant that had ghost kitchen'd itself EIGHTEEN times: https://i.imgur.com/7jwBlFG.png Some of the name variations are pretty funny though.

Weird, I've seen some of those exact names on delivery apps in Minneapolis. Ghost kitchen chain?

Yep, there are 2 kinds of ghost kitchens I've seen:

1. Ones that pretend to be a real brand name but serve out of an unrelated restaurant's kitchen

2. Ones that are 100% fake chains made up just for delivery apps that are used across the country

Before I order on apps I first google for the name to make sure they have a real physical location in my city and it's not a scam (yes, I believe all ghost kitchens are scams).

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#114

Post by leros »

joshstrange wrote: post #111

I absolutely hate ghost kitchens, I think they should have to be labeled as such since they are often only a step at best above straight up scams. The 2 times I accidently ordered from one ("Oh nice, I didn't know we got an X nearby") the food has been below subpar and generally a huge disappointment. These days I really hate using delivery apps. You have to dodge the ghost kitchens which isn't easy (both the fake br…

There's nothing inherently wrong with ghost kitchens. A restaurant that only serves food for delivery is completely valid.

The problem is when existing restaurants pretend they're a ghost kitchen. You order from a cool new chicken wing restaurant and get an order from Chilies. You order from a new pizza restaurant and get a box that says Chuck E Cheese on it. That's just purely deceptive.

The other thing I see is the same crap food getting sold by a variety of names that are constantly coming and going.

So yeah, I was originally in love with the idea of ghost kitchens. We have so many good creative food trucks where I live and I thought we'd get good creative ghost kitchens, but instead you get tricked into buying a burger from Hooters.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#115

Post by joshstrange »

modeless wrote: post #37

While we're piling on Doordash, how have they managed to produce a website that takes more than a second to respond to every single button press? Like even something as simple as clicking on the hamburger menu icon takes over a second to register. It's infuriating.

Or switching out of the app and back causes it to throw up a spinner for longer than feels reasonable. As someone who has interfaced with their API I can tell you it's a trainwreck and I have no expectations that their actual backend is any better.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#116

Post by nikau »

dejawu wrote: post #20

It's insane. I once found a restaurant that had ghost kitchen'd itself EIGHTEEN times: https://i.imgur.com/7jwBlFG.png Some of the name variations are pretty funny though.

I guess if you ordered from "deli belli" you can't do a chargeback for food poisoning.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#117

Post by joshstrange »

leros wrote: post #114
joshstrange wrote: post #111

I absolutely hate ghost kitchens, I think they should have to be labeled as such since they are often only a step at best above straight up scams. The 2 times I accidently ordered from one ("Oh nice, I didn't know we got an X nearby") the food has been below subpar and generally a huge disappointment. These days I really hate using delivery apps. You have to dodge the ghost kitchens which isn't easy (both the fake br…

There's nothing inherently wrong with ghost kitchens. A restaurant that only serves food for delivery is completely valid. The problem is when existing restaurants pretend they're a ghost kitchen. You order from a cool new chicken wing restaurant and get an order from Chilies. You order from a new pizza restaurant and get a box that says Chuck E Cheese on it. That's just purely deceptive. The other thing I see is the…

That's the thing, I know there are 2-3 kinds of "ghost kitchen". The kind that is a real brand being sold out of a different restaurant, the fake brands sold out of a regular restaurant, and the fake/real brands sold out of a mixed kitchen that only does delivery.

Of all of those the 3rd is the only one that I'm even slightly ok with but I feel like the incentives for these kitchens don't favor the customers and it's just a race to the bottom of using the cheapest/crappiest ingredients to make a quick buck. I don't believe there are any "delivery-only, multi-brand kitchens" in my city (yet) but there are a ton of real and fake brands being sold out of other kitchens and the results less than stellar. I think the chicken tenders I got from one them would have better if I had made frozen chicken tenders in the oven verses what I got.

I too was intrigued by the ghost kitchen idea when it first came out but so far from what I've seen it's the worst of all worlds. The quality sucks and they can easily just rebrand under a new fake name after burning their reputation. Again, the incentives are pretty gross when you think about it and I won't support it.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#118

Post by quinnjh »

ironlake wrote: post #109
silicon2401 wrote: post #107

The beauty of the food world is that if you're willing to choose a restaurant that doesn't use a delivery app, or if you're willing to do takeout, you save money and get a way better experience. The first time I tried using a delivery app I saw that the service fee was something like 20%, whereupon I laughed and never went back. I'd rather pick up the food myself and pay nothing more than the cost of food itself, or…

My family orders take-out once a week. I used to go pick it up almost every time. DoorDash reduced my personal stress level by so much that the 20% service fee is an absolute bargain. DoorDash itself is predatory and harmful to local restaurants and worldwide labor practices. If you are a developer and a product manager asks you to implement a dark pattern, you should raise objections at every step of the process, im…

>If you are a developer and a product manager asks you to implement a dark pattern, you should raise objections at every step of the process

In what way would this benefit the organization?

Its great sentiment and I would agree, though i fear the reality is "The squeaky wheel gets replaced"

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#119

Post by SOLAR_FIELDS »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #35

I live in The Netherlands and order food at least once a week, usually from Thuisbezorgd. I've never had any of the problems people are discussing here. I will say that Thusbezorgd is often more expensive than just going directly to a restaurant's website. But also we find restaurants that we like and keep ordering from them. I typically know precisely where my food is coming from because I physically know where the…

Usually the ones in the States are quite more expensive than ordering from the restaurant as well. GrubHub adds markup to individual food items, DoorDash does it via hidden fees. Usually about 10-20% above the normal restaurant price, not including delivery fee and tip. Most often there is no other way to get food delivery from said restaurants though.

Re: Ask HN: What's up with these DoorDash dark patterns?

#120

Post by leros »

joshstrange wrote: post #117
leros wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing inherently wrong with ghost kitchens. A restaurant that only serves food for delivery is completely valid. The problem is when existing restaurants pretend they're a ghost kitchen. You order from a cool new chicken wing restaurant and get an order from Chilies. You order from a new pizza restaurant and get a box that says Chuck E Cheese on it. That's just purely deceptive. The other thing I see is the…

That's the thing, I know there are 2-3 kinds of "ghost kitchen". The kind that is a real brand being sold out of a different restaurant, the fake brands sold out of a regular restaurant, and the fake/real brands sold out of a mixed kitchen that only does delivery. Of all of those the 3rd is the only one that I'm even slightly ok with but I feel like the incentives for these kitchens don't favor the customers and it's…

We have some actually legitimate ghost kitchens where I live that are good. We also have some shared kitchen spaces where you can pickup or order delivery from a bunch of different restaurants with a single order. It's just hard to find them in the delivery apps since those are flooded with the corporate fake ghost kitchens.
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