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Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

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Re: Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

#111
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't all love what we do that makes us a living though. The HN audience probably skew very heavily toward loving tech and thus enjoying their work in that industry, but for those without the innate interest it's still better to have a job with good benefits, salary, working conditions etc than one without those things.

+1, I say this all the time. Are plumbers "passionate" about their jobs? Did the garbage man end up in his role because of his childhood love of moving garbage? No. So in a world where you'll likely have to drudge through some form of employment, you might as well learn a well paid, _actually valuable_ trade that you get to do from an air conditioned office.

school grades, as maria montessori put it, are "small minded blackmail attempts". kids don't learn because of good grades. primariy they seek justice. while a teacher can prefer a busy but unintelligent school girl, a computer won't do that. when coding, your result can basically only be a working prog or not.

no teacher required to tell you if your prog is working. you get your reward from the computer: joy of creating something.

psychologically seen, to learn that what you are doing creates impact is the very basis of learning.

if you give your child Mastery, Autonomy and Purpose * some tools and an environment to start with * freedom to try and fail without waiting for a teacher to answer questions and * a good reason to learn, after a very short time you will see someone who does not need "extrinsic motivation" and explanations. be prepared for more questions than you can answer.

maybe, the garbage man will still be the garbage man in the end. but possibly see ways to improve his work or at least look forward to his side projects after work.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

#112
For the same reason we teach them more advanced mathematical theorems or other scientific knowledge:

- Because it's good for their personal culture to know that this field exists and have a rough idea of how it works, and programming is the type of job that everyone knows it exists but not many people really know what it really is.

- Because it's the type of knowledge you don't get to build on your own unless your parents work in that field so many kids might actually enjoy it but would never know it until they try it. I see many comments saying "if they're not interested then they shouldn't do it", but how can they know they're not interested if they've never tried it ? They can't, they'd base their assumptions on stereotypes, which learning programming would help breaking and maybe encourage more people, especially girls, to give it a go if they like it instead of thinking it's just dark magic for nerds.

- Because in the age of everything-computers and everywhere-internet, understanding basic code and basic algorithms helps demystify the myth of "it's all the Algorithm, that magic black box that nobody can control" that companies love to use to not have to explain to their customers what they do with their data. I'd argue knowing the basics of how a computer works in 2022 is as important as learning how to pay taxes or how to cook (which we also do not learn in school), because it's everywhere in your life and you WILL interact with it no matter what.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

#114
Why they should be programming if they aren't interested in it?

Maybe they end loving History, or Linguistics, os Maths or Philosophy or whatever they like.

When I was 9 I wanted to be a cartoonist, but my dad, who was computer illiterate, bought a ZX Spectrum because he saw a sale, and I fell in love with games and programming at 10 by myself. If someone had tried to force programming on me I think I'd ended being a cartoonist (well, if I were talented enough).

I think we need to teach how to use computers as tools for an end, like the majority of us use a water tap whiout knowing plumbing. And the rest will come by itself, if it has to come.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

#115

Programming is difficult, and forcing young people to do something difficult that they don't find intrinsically interesting and compelling is mostly a waste of time and effort. Just because a parent wants their child to be able to play the piano with great skill doesn't mean they'll take to it. However, learning to use computers for relatively simple tasks and as an aid in other areas makes a lot of sense. Take the c…

"Just because a parent wants their child to be able to play the piano with great skill doesn't mean they'll take to it" And yet the beast, vast majority of kids who were forced to learn to play a musical instrument are grateful that their parents forced them to do it, even if they do not "take to it" i.e. 99.9% of kids. The ones who didn't get forced to learn an instrument regret missing out. As a parent you are buil…

> If you let your kids laze around and do whatever, they will ignore you when they are 15, and wish they had stricter parents that forced them to do more things growing up when they are 30.

Nah, I'm going to argue that the tendency to laze around, given other viable options, is a personality trait.

Most kids will do stuff they find interesting, given the opportunity to do so.. It's only adults who have had their will to live beaten out of them that laze around-

Re: Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

#116
Programming is often reduced to the technical part of putting down code that runs a machine. But as writing is not drawing symbols and reading is not vocal reproduction of these symbols, there is more behind programming than making a machine do what you want. Everything that is teached in school is in the end reduced to being able to solve problems.

Learn how to program is in fact learning how to formalize a large problem, think about it in a structured way, and if the problem is too large as a whole, divide it into manageable parts, that solve parts and together solve the problem as a whole. Additionally an individual that has learned how to program also learned about importance of precision of instructions.

Being able to do this, and being able to think about systems and processes in a structured way is helpful in a lot of disciplines beside tech industry.

Therefore it also doesn't matter how children or young adults learn to code, this is more a question about how to get someones motivation and focus.

And especially this is not about getting a job in tech industry. Learning this type of problem solving (which is not exclusive to programming) and thinking about systems etc. will help you with/in most of the jobs out there, e.g. kitchen chef, event/wedding planner, car mechanic, musician,... you name it - even if you don't write a line of code anymore in your life.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

#117
It's a life skill like reading and writing. There used to be a time when most people couldn't write except for minority, many of whom did it professionally. Most people sit in front of a computer for work, and many do repetitive tasks that could be offloaded to simple scripts.

It's hard to explain to someone who can't code how it would make their lives better, as I assume it once would have been difficult to explain to a farmer the value of reading, but there are societal benefits to everybody knowing how to read. We can post public information like highway exits and store hours and "beware of dog" signs and know that the majority of people will be able to read them.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

#118
Why should a young person learn woodworking or metalworking? Because, even if they never do anything with it professionally, it still comes in handy when they just want to do something. Being able to envision something and then make it real is really cool.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

#119
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't all love what we do that makes us a living though. The HN audience probably skew very heavily toward loving tech and thus enjoying their work in that industry, but for those without the innate interest it's still better to have a job with good benefits, salary, working conditions etc than one without those things.

+1, I say this all the time. Are plumbers "passionate" about their jobs? Did the garbage man end up in his role because of his childhood love of moving garbage? No. So in a world where you'll likely have to drudge through some form of employment, you might as well learn a well paid, _actually valuable_ trade that you get to do from an air conditioned office.

> Did the garbage man end up in his role because of his childhood love of moving garbage?

Probably I remember a kid from my primary school was obsessed with the garbage lorry he knew everything about how it works and now he is a bin man. He makes more than the national average salary finishes work at lunch time and has a state pension something we can only dream of.

Programming isn't the only good job, its easy to dedicated yourself to it and forget that.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most compelling reason young people should learn to program?

#120

Programming is difficult, and forcing young people to do something difficult that they don't find intrinsically interesting and compelling is mostly a waste of time and effort. Just because a parent wants their child to be able to play the piano with great skill doesn't mean they'll take to it. However, learning to use computers for relatively simple tasks and as an aid in other areas makes a lot of sense. Take the c…

"Just because a parent wants their child to be able to play the piano with great skill doesn't mean they'll take to it" And yet the beast, vast majority of kids who were forced to learn to play a musical instrument are grateful that their parents forced them to do it, even if they do not "take to it" i.e. 99.9% of kids. The ones who didn't get forced to learn an instrument regret missing out. As a parent you are buil…

My parents forced me to do dumb stuff always justifying it solely with you will thank me when you are older. It built up resentment in me that my parents thought I would just sit around doing nothing without them standing over my shoulder criticising and controlling me.

At 34 I paid my own way through life and have nothing to thank them for but wasting my youth. I don't do any of the things they forced me too it was all a waste of time and I still resent them because they never learned, they still think this whole internet thing is a fad and that some day I will thank them, we don't talk much.

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