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Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

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Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#111

Post by red_throwaway »

kube-system wrote: post #71
Nextgrid wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which it absolutely isn't, since they're reserving themselves the right to use it for advertising purposes. If it was properly anonymised it would be completely useless for such purposes.

That is likely a fair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. There exists marketing data which does not identify individuals.

> There exists marketing data which does not identify individuals.

As these datasets grow (and they only grow), it becomes trivial to tie anonymized profiles to a specific person. They leave off names and it's expected that the final consumer of the data do the "last mile" work of tying it to the name. The easy part.

Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#112

Post by bryanrasmussen »

kube-system wrote: post #71
Nextgrid wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which it absolutely isn't, since they're reserving themselves the right to use it for advertising purposes. If it was properly anonymised it would be completely useless for such purposes.

That is likely a fair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. There exists marketing data which does not identify individuals.

it's actually pretty difficult to anonymize data and not have it be able to de-anonymized, at any rate the question regarded privacy rights and if things are anonymized that's not what the question would be then.

Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#113

Post by turbinerneiter »

I have no clue about cameras, so I have not even the faintest idea if this can compare in any way to a professional camera, or even how far along the development is: https://www.apertus.org

This is an open source and open hardware project, working on a camera because they dislike exactly the kind of stuff you described.

Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#114

Post by pbhjpbhj »

pessimizer wrote: post #89
jrockway wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're entitled to return it for a full refund. The same would be true if you took some video and didn't like how the camera worked, or just got cold feet on your $30k purchase. I get the feeling that you want more than that (like a custom license agreement, or some punishment for the sales person for not mentioning the EULA), and I don't think you're going to get that. Return it for a refund, RED has to sell…

> I think you're entitled to return it for a full refund. By law?

In the UK I'd say yes, the product isn't as described prior to sale. Major defects have to be brought to attention of potential buyers.

Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#115

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

red_throwaway wrote: post #12
thegagne wrote: post #9

> technical, diagnostic, usage and related information, including but not limited to information about your RED Camera, Camera Module, computer, system and application software, usage, content, and peripherals. They are doing CYA here, but what they are likely collecting here is metadata, not the content itself. And very likely they are referring to data collected for troubleshooting purposes.

That's what I suspect too but the terms don't read like that in my opinion. I'm hoping someone can chime in and explain why the terms don't allow for the content itself to be mined.

well it says "information about ... content" which is different from the content itself. It's vague, and i find the whole thing unacceptable, i would not consent to a camera sharing usage information, but concerning this detail, it doesn't say "the content" .

Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#116

Post by eslaught »

renewiltord wrote: post #110
JaimeThompson wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why would the manufacturer of a professional-targeted camera take an action that would destroy their business? To make the next quarters number look better.

It won't. Any material so created would immediately receive an injunction at a court and the risk would be so high that you wouldn't even do it because you can't use the material. Also, there are zero people in movies who can tell you whether a movie will succeed. You can't make the bet. The incentives force RED to not abuse.

And plus, this is raw footage. You could leak it for the lulz, but it's laughable to think you could make any money off of it even if you tried. A vast amount (possibly the majority?) of creative energy goes into the editing/post-production process after all the raw footage is captured.

Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#117

Post by spacemanmatt »

dboreham wrote: post #59
mysterydip wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't you ever wondered how many hits you've done? Your accuracy to the center of the face? Could your swing be improved? What's your hits per minute average? How do your stats compare to other contractors, or workers for the same construction company? I bet company owners would be interested to know ;) Coming soon, just sign the EULA and run a firmware update!

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Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#118

Post by eganist »

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #107
eganist wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The purchase is completed before he gets it home and finds new conditions being imposed. That the part that I question about being legal. My experience (IANAL and I don't know the specific laws here): you can return the product if you don't agree to the bundled licensing terms, generally even if you've opened it and encountered the licensing terms after the fact (though not every retailer may appreciate this one).…

Or you can just use the product normally without agreeing to it. Look up "unconscionability"

I guess my point was moreso that legal agreements sprung upon you post-purchase could make for a useful escape hatch.

If you want to use the product, shrug. But if you suddenly don't, then hey, there's a potential exit.

Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#119

Post by robocat »

Perhaps get a tween to click it, or someone else that you are not responsible for. There is probably some clause to ensure that the person that clicks it passes on the licence, but that clause would be difficult to enforce. If you told a very young child to do it, then you would probably be held responsible. Outcomes would vary depending on jurisdiction too?

Edit: “You agree that RED and its affiliates may collect, maintain, process, transmit, and use technical, diagnostic, usage and related information, including but not limited to information about your RED Camera”. This implies you allow RED to have a person follow you around to watch what you are doing? They don’t limit the collection to just what to device records, nor do they limit the scope of what may be collected?

Re: Ask HN: Is the EULA on my new $30k RED cinema camera legal?

#120

Post by 83 »

H8crilA wrote: post #54
mysterydip wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't you ever wondered how many hits you've done? Your accuracy to the center of the face? Could your swing be improved? What's your hits per minute average? How do your stats compare to other contractors, or workers for the same construction company? I bet company owners would be interested to know ;) Coming soon, just sign the EULA and run a firmware update!

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