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Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#111

There is the potential that you have ADHD, because what you're describing sounds similar to my situation. I eventually ended up on stimulant medication to help, but there's non-stimulant medication available (if you're opposed to eating amphetamines for breakfast), as well as counselling and other treatment options that don't involve medication. Even if you don't want to seek professional treatment, you could look up…

I highly recommend checking out this thread about stimulant medications: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16033574

As someone who has ADHD and has taken stimulant medications for a long time, I would like to share my experience. There is a very faustian aspect of taking these medications. Don't think that you can change your brain chemistry and not change who you are.

I would not have the career I have today without it. Before I started getting treated, I was barely supporting myself financially, and struggling to get through community college. I felt so powerless, while my peers rocketed ahead of me. After I started taking medication, I was able to take control of my life, and do things I had previously ruled out doing. I did great academically, and then made more money than I ever thought I would. It was such an amazing feeling to feel like I had been given a second chance at life.

However, it changed me, and I lost something. I wonder what could have been. I remember the moment I noticed I was changed. For a year before I started taking it, I had been dating someone for over a year, and not once had we ever had a fight. But a month after I started taking adderall, I screamed at her when I got frustrated because she changed plans we had made. I was so horrified, and I wanted to stop taking it that day, when I still could. Our relationship didn't last three more months. I gradually lost touch with my old friends.

I was only supposed to take it to get through college, but the choices I made on adderall were such that I chose a lifestyle that required it. I pushed myself really hard for years and I was able to prove that I wasn't a slacker or stupid; I got a fancy .edu email and coauthored scholarly papers and presented at conferences.

I miss who I was before I started taking it. Things just didn't annoy me. I was so cool with stuff. I think I was much more emotionally resilient, and much better able to read people. Stimulant medications make me more "autistic", for lack of a better word. I think I have really regressed emotionally.

I would strongly advise anyone who starts taking these medications to not lose touch with yourself. See a therapist, even if it does not seem necessary. Try to maintain relationships and keep yourself emotionally anchored. Give your soul room to breathe. Take emotional sabbaticals where you are able to ruminate on important decisions. Consider not taking your meds on the weekends. Listen to music and play video games, even if they don't seem to entertain you as much. I have a theory that your "right brain" still likes these things, but that your impulses for entertainment are just suppressed.

As for me, I am seriously considering trying to live without these medications, or at least severely cut them back. Besides the problems that I talked about, there is also evidence that stimulant medications can reduce brain mass over the decades. I don't want to discourage anyone from doing the best for themselves, but everything has a cost. If you want to do well in college and build your career in your 20s, that is understandable. But keep yourself grounded.

Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#112

I have a tough time concentrating on hard problems too. I don't have ADHD, I'm just scatterbrained and easily distracted. When I do hit that "zone" I can stay in it for hours, but I rarely get to that point on any single problem. Here are some things I do: Go for a walk. Don't face the problem head on specifically, just absorb the gist of the problem and then go for a walk and let your sub conscious deal with it, the…

> I don't have ADHD, I'm just scatterbrained and easily distracted. What's the difference? > When I do hit that "zone" I can stay in it for hours, but I rarely get to that point on any single problem. Maybe you're already aware, but that's very common with ADHD.

The difference is that I can overcome it with will power. A person with ADHD cannot.

Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#113
I've lived with ADHD for about half of my life. You may or may not have ADHD, but what you're describing sounds pretty similar. Here're a few things I do.

0. Rexamine physical health. In the past two years, I have been diagnosed with sleep apnea and low testosterone (I'm a guy). Having those two treated has been almost miraculous. The ADHD is still very real, but I find I can fight the inattentiveness if I've had a good night's sleep. (And, I guess not coincidentally, a good night's sleep for me is between 6 and 7 hours on a CPAP. I can rarely make it to 8 hours. Again, the ADHD is real.) I've also been examining my diet, my weight, my activity level and other physical changes I can make.

1. Be constructively self-critical and responsible for your actions, but not self-destructive. I shouldn't accept failure from myself due to lack of attentiveness/motivation, but that's not a license to tell myself that I'm an intrinsically, irredeemably bad person. This may be a cliche in SV, but with ADHD or the feelings you're describing, every failure really is a learning opportunity. Your feelings of lack of motivation are not anyone else's fault, but they're not yours either. However, only you can take the initiative to make the situation better.

2. Think through the activities you do where you actually do have quite a bit of clarity and focus. I'm guessing there's something you do that just makes time seem to melt away. See if there's a way to harness what interests you in that activity, and see if you can apply it in a constructive way. I have two: playing RTS games and driving or doing some other fairly monotonous activity that nonetheless requires attention and focus. Playing RTS games has actually helped me develop strategies to remember to do things, and driving long distances suggested to me that if I constrain my environment in certain ways, I can actually be quite productive and attentive.

3. Use some strategies/invent your own.

- I find that writing down checklists is a huge help. It makes the big problems crumble into small manageable bricks. (For checklists, I've started literally putting notes in VS Code in a markdown file, and then using the Markdown Preview Enhanced extension, which shows an interactive, two-way bound rendering on the right pane of my screen.)

- Bootstrap the right mindset every day. I put a few post-it notes around my monitor, bathroom mirror or other places that I'll see to remind me how to deal with life. I put enough up that they'll help me without making me feel overwhelmed. This strategy is also useful for any self-control issues you may have, which usually goes hand-in-hand with a lack of motivation/feeling overwhelmed by big problems. When I make a good decision based on a reminder from the past, it's a fun feeling. These good feelings can form a sort of virtuous cycle where you find yourself being a bit more disciplined than you have been.

- Quit social media. I've entirely cut out Twitter and I only use Facebook Messenger. I don't miss any of it. I visit HN more now, and use the "attentiveness" features in my profile. This may seem drastic, but it's helpful.

- If you can't quit something (YouTube, for instance), use some sort of blocker that will keep you locked out for a time. I edit my /etc/hosts file, although there are more automated tools that can do this kind of thing.

- Read up on tactics people use for things like speed reading or note-taking or other organizational and personal management skills. Then put them into practice. I've started using a RocketBook for note-taking, and it's wonderful. I use a specific note-taking method called the Cornell Method [1], and I find my focus and comprehension when learning big new topics is much higher. Find what works for you, and implement it.

- Trap yourself into pro-productivity habits, not anti-productivity ones. Eliminate any distractions or interactions when you're doing productive work; maximize the number of distractions when you're doing unproductive things (like getting so far into YouTube's recommendation algorithm that you watch a Japanese guy make hard objects out of bread or fingernails - this may or may not have happened to me). I set timers for that stuff and otherwise try to harass myself as much as possible. When I'm working, I set Do Not Disturb mode on anything supporting it, I turn off other notifications (within reason - I'd recommend you still respond to your boss/client, for instance). Look into things like the pomodoro method, where you work for 25 mins and take a 5 minute break, and see if you can increase the productive time.

4. Find something you think you can't do, and then try to do it and don't give up. Steve Jobs once said, "Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you and you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can use." [2] My experience has shown this is quite true. We make our own luck. I've learned that with enough effort, that feeling feeling in the pit of my stomach that coincides with the thought "I don't know how I can tackle this problem" has almost always given way to the feeling of victory when I actually do solve the problem. I haven't had 100% success, of course, but I always frame the lack of success as TODOs to revisit later. I have my current job because I did this, and it's the best job I've ever had with the best team I have ever worked with. Once you do a single thing you thought you couldn't do, your perspective on life does change somewhat.

5. Make change gradually. I didn't take a magic pill and have all problems in my life solved. In fact, I can't do this - I'll be dooming myself to failure. If I try a new exercise regimen or trying to form habits or something like that, I do them one at a time. I find it hard to cope otherwise. My wife is the opposite - she gets motivation from shocking herself into a new routine, but I just can't handle that approach. I set major goals on the order of years, milestones on the order of months, and then individual strategies and tactics on weeks or days.

6. Find the positives of your situation. Unlike most people who have a basic intuition about how to accomplish complex tasks, I have devote my own brainpower to it. However, this has resulted in me developing an almost scientific process for improvement, which most normally motivated/attentive people don't have. There were people I graduated college with who had no issues with ADHD and were far ahead of me in terms of organizational skills and the ability to self-manage. However, through continual work over the years I've surpassed many of them in accomplishments. Career accomplishments are not a measure of a fulfilled life, of course, but making genuine contributions to fellow humans (even if those are fairly small but real) is a good feeling that is hard to overstate.

7. Try to control your emotions without suppressing them or letting them run wild. I find that a lot of the source of my "mental laziness" actually doesn't involve the mind at all, but my emotions. I have to engage the mind to counteract the emotions I experience, and when I do, the strong emotions holding me back (e.g. fear, anger, boredom, despair) are actually not that severe. Putting emotional experiences into words is a simple strategy that can be helpful. Our brains have a sophisticated neocortex which can handle complex reasoning, including linguistic reasoning. Our emotions are thought to be processed and generated by our limbic systems, which are present in most vertebrates and is pre-linguistic (though is very much involved in vocalization of emotional tone, even in non-humans). I've found that the higher functions of our brains can actually put the lower functions in their place when warranted.

8. Use therapy and other resources to help you. Therapists can absolutely help. You will find there are probably treatments that you can do that will help, and many of them do not involve medication. A therapist can be especially helpful at determining the causes of why you feel the way you feel, and may be helpful in developing strategies to overcome these issues. A therapist can also be a shortcut to some of the experimentation I mentioned above. They are often aware of explicit strategies that work for many people, and those might directly help you or might be a good seed that grows into something unique for you. And it's sometimes helpful to be forced to put your thoughts and attitude into words for another human being, who can synthesize it and review it with you.

This list has ballooned from a few planned points, but I hope it helps. You can vanquish this problem. I think you would be surprised at how much you can accomplish by putting forth just a little bit of intentional effort in the right ways.

[1] http://lsc.cornell.edu/study-skills/cornell-note-taking-syst... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw&t=38s

Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#114
post #62

Do you find that when you have to do something mentally unpleasant (such as homework back when you were in school / college, or doing your taxes, or whatever similar thing affect you), do you tend to space out? Or do you get a feeling in the pit of your stomach like you are about to be sent to the principal's office (to use an over-used analogy), and you find that you must do something else (that is pleasant) just to…

Having spent my teens and early adult life with undiagnosed ADHD, it can manifest itself as depression and anxiety from constantly feel frustrated with yourself from not being able to focus or achieve your goals. Getting treated for ADHD may solve other problems.

And ADHD-like symptoms of difficulty focusing can themselves be comorbid with depression, and a non-stimulant medication like strattera may be able to help.

I shared some of my experiences with ADHD medication earlier in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22920962

There are just a lot of things that I wish I had known.

Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not good advice and if anything can make people feel worse about themselves and have the opposite effect. Do you also think that an alcoholic should just "do it" (i.e. stop drinking) or a depressed person should just "get over it"? Where's the line (I know I took your example a bit further to prove a point).. Our brains are complex and it takes all kinds of psychological "tricks" to make progress on certain t…

I don’t agree with your response. >> Do you also think that an alcoholic should just "do it" (i.e. stop drinking) or a depressed person should just "get over it"? False equivalence. Not doing work is neither depression nor alcoholism. If you find you get to a point in life where essentially you have fallen into lazy habits then you fix it by taking action.

>>> Not doing work is neither depression nor alcoholism.

It definitely can be as a result of depression. I don't think we have enough information to rule out things like depression.

Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#116

There is the potential that you have ADHD, because what you're describing sounds similar to my situation. I eventually ended up on stimulant medication to help, but there's non-stimulant medication available (if you're opposed to eating amphetamines for breakfast), as well as counselling and other treatment options that don't involve medication. Even if you don't want to seek professional treatment, you could look up…

Someone doesn’t have to have ADHD to shirk from hard problems. Expecting technical/intellectual problems to be easy to solve is something that is drilled into most people by the school system, which rarely if ever present problems that take more than a few minutes to solve, and pretty much never expect students to try tackling problems that require weeks of effort. The result is that when many people encounter a hard…

There's a difference between "finding it difficult to get started on the thing you don't want to do" and "literally would not be able to choose to do it for more than a few minutes even with a gun to your head".

I don't know the OP but this seems a bit like telling someone that "everyone feels tired sometimes" when they might have undiagnosed chronic fatigue syndrome.

Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#117
Some people here suggest you might have ADHD. I encourage you to consider this, but suggest for you to be very skeptical towards this possibility. You can find extended discussion on this here: [1]. Focus first on fundamentals like sleep, exercise, diet, good social and romantic ties. Even if just one of your fundamentals is off, it might cause your brain to tell you “Hey, you want for me to put some long, hard, focused effort towards some long-term, hypothetical payoff, and yet I have this IMMEDIATE, IMPORTANT unfulfilled need. I am not even sure if I will make through the next week/month/X. Fix your priorities first, only then let’s play the long-term game, OK?”.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22132342

Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fellow ADHD sufferer here to second this. Thinking about ADHD as a deficit of motivation, which is much more accurate than an attention-oriented view, tends to clarify this sort of situation.

Anybody feels that ADHD or similar issues are often a sign that you're not doing things that you need to to be happy ? Like running after something for the wrong reasons ? Kinda like Bukowski "don't try" ? ps: to explain more, there were times where a) I was slowly but surely inspired by a topic and would just keep wondering and thinking about it, 'hard' or not, it was similar to walking a mental park b) I was motiva…

Depression (and many other illnesses, autoimmune, hormonal deficiencies, sleep disorders, all kinds of dementia and other neurological illnesses) will produce a dysexecutive syndrome that's very similar, if not indisginuishable, from ADHD.

In your specific case you may want to read up on something called "learned helplessness". Essentially you are being conditioned by failure to quit prematurely.

That is different from ADHD. ADHD in itself is really a diagnosis of exclusion, where no clear cause can be found.

Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#119
Are you sure this isn't "self sabotaging", ie not trying hard so that you can tell yourself that failure isn't because you're not smart enough but because you didn't actually try?

This can be a common coping mechanism for people with "fixed mindset". For an overview of the "fixed" vs "growth" mindset research, see e.g https://fs.blog/2015/03/carol-dweck-mindset/

(This is some really fascinating research and I've talked to lots of people who grew up as "smart kids" that feel this describes at least part of their personality.)

Re: Ask HN: How do I overcome mental laziness?

#120

There is the potential that you have ADHD, because what you're describing sounds similar to my situation. I eventually ended up on stimulant medication to help, but there's non-stimulant medication available (if you're opposed to eating amphetamines for breakfast), as well as counselling and other treatment options that don't involve medication. Even if you don't want to seek professional treatment, you could look up…

Fellow ADHD sufferer here to second this. Thinking about ADHD as a deficit of motivation, which is much more accurate than an attention-oriented view, tends to clarify this sort of situation.

ADHD is best described as impaired self-directed behavior.

The kernel of motivation may exist, but an ADHD victim would fail to follow through on that motivation, to their own detriment.

Either due to lack of concentration, lack of planning, or lack of execution. Often all of the above.

It is a general dysexecutive syndrome that that may impact all higher order cognitive functions.

Motivation, on the other hand can also be impaired by depression (aka "learned helplessness" - which is not uncommon in ADHD), but that would not be ADHD in itself.

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