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Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

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Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than a completely new approach for producing value such as the 'Freeism' one described in the article suggested in this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20282851 (which I hadn't time to read yet and hence I'm neither in favour of or against) this simply boils down to the questions of who will pay for relevant content and what the business model will be. By and large, people don't seem to be willing…

> By and large, people don't seem to be willing to pay for content on the web. Hence, advertising became the dominant business model for content on the web. I don't think the causality is right here. People might not be willing to pay for content on the web because advertising enables competitors to offer content for free. If you removed that option, if people had no choice but to pay, it might just turn out that peo…

How would you achieve that? By outrightly outlawing advertising?

There absolutely are paid options on the web. It's just that they don't seem to appeal to a sufficient number of buyers so advertising could become irrelevant.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#112
post #82
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking that the only way to get around the bad-actor (or paid agent) problem when dealing with online networks is to have some sort of distributed trust mechanism. I feel like manually curated information is the way to go, you just have to find some way to filter out all the useless info and marketing/propaganda. You can't crowd source it because it opens up avenues for gaming the system. The only solutio…

That's very workable.Any agent should have a private key with which it signs it's pushes. Age of an agent and score of feedback for that agent determine its ranking.Though that still leaves gaming possible with the feedback. But heavy feeback like "this is malicious content" could be moderated. (So that people cant just report stuff they don't like).

>But heavy feeback like "this is malicious content" could be moderated. //

You're just shifting around your trust problem. You need to handle 4chan level manipulation (million of users coordinating to manipulate polls), or Scientology depth (getting thousands of people in to USA government jobs in order to get recognised as a religion). If it's "we'll catch it in moderation" then whoever wants to manipulate it just gets a moderator ...

"Super-moderation": will a dictatorship work here? I don't see how.

"Meta-moderation": you're back to bad actors manipulating things with pure numbers.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#113
post #14

The deeper problem is advertising. It is sort of a prisoner's dilemma: all commercial entities have a shouting contest to attract customer attention. It's expensive for everybody. If we could kill advertisement permanently, we can have an internet as described in the question. This will almost be like an emergent feature of the internet.

If we kill advertisement, you can say goodbye to the vast majority of content on the internet. The better approach is to make advertising a better experience and to create incentives for advertisers to spend ad dollars on quality content.

maybe it's worth saying goodbye to "8 reasons why current internet sucks that drive spammy copywriters mad". The whole more-clicks-more-revenue based approach did not do good things to the online content.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#114
post #110

Everyone has missed the most important aspect of search engines, from the point of view of their core function of information retrieval: they're the internet equivalent of a library index. Either you find a way to make information findable in a library without an index (how?!?) or you find a novel way to make a neutral search engine - one that provides as much value as Google but whose costs are paid in a different w…

maybe crowdsourcing would be a solution - something similar to "@home" project, only for web indexes/cache - maybe even leverage the browsers via plugin for web scraping. It already kind of works for getpocket.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#115
Author of the npm module search-index here.

"1- Finding information is trivial"

The web already consists, for the most part, of marked up text. If speed is not a contraint, then we can already search through the entire web on demand, however, given that we dont want to use 5 years on every search we carry out, what we really need is a SEARCH INDEX.

Given that we want to avoid Big Brother like entities such as Google, Microsoft and Amazon, and also given, although this is certainly debatable, that government should stay out of the business of search, what we need is a DECENTRALISED SEARCH INDEX

To do this you are going to need AT THE VERY LEAST a gigantic reverse index that contains every searchable token (word) on the web. That index should ideally include some kind of scoring so that the very best documents for, say, "banana" come at the top of the list for searches for "banana" (You also need a query pipeline and an indexing pipeline but for the sake of simplicity, lets leave that out for now).

In theory a search index is very shardable. You can easily host an index that is in fact made up of lots of little indexes, so a READABLE DECENTRALISED SEARCH INDEX is feasable with the caveat that relevancy would suffer since relevancy algorithms such as TD-IDF and Page Rank generally rely on an awareness of the whole index and not just an individual shard in order to calculate score.

Therefore a READABLE DECENTRALISED SEARCH INDEX WITH BAD RELEVANCY is certainly doable although it would have Lycos-grade performance circa 1999.

CHALLENGES:

1) Populating the search index with be problematic. Who does it, how they get incentivized/paid, and how they are kept honest is a pretty tricky question.

2) Indexing pipelines are very tricky and require a lot of work to do well. There is a whole industry built around feeding data into search indexes. That said, this is certainly an area that is improving all the time.

3) How the whole business of querying a distributed search index would actually work is an open question. You would need to query many shards, and then do a Map-Reduce operation that glues together the responses. It may be possible to do this on users devices somehow, but that would create a lot of network traffic.

4) All of the nice, fancy schmancy latest Google functionality unrelated to pure text lookup would not be available.

"2- You don't need services indexing billions of pages to find any relevant document"

You need to create some kind of index, but there is a tiny sliver of hope that this could be done in a decentralized way without the need for half a handful of giant corporations. Therefore many entities could be responsible for their own little piece of the index.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#116
post #110

Everyone has missed the most important aspect of search engines, from the point of view of their core function of information retrieval: they're the internet equivalent of a library index. Either you find a way to make information findable in a library without an index (how?!?) or you find a novel way to make a neutral search engine - one that provides as much value as Google but whose costs are paid in a different w…

> or you find a novel way to make a neutral search engine

Just because nobody's said it in this thread yet: blockchain? I never bought into the whole bitcoin buzz, but using a blockchain as an internet index could be interesting.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#117
post #110

Everyone has missed the most important aspect of search engines, from the point of view of their core function of information retrieval: they're the internet equivalent of a library index. Either you find a way to make information findable in a library without an index (how?!?) or you find a novel way to make a neutral search engine - one that provides as much value as Google but whose costs are paid in a different w…

> or you find a novel way to make a neutral search engine Just because nobody's said it in this thread yet: blockchain? I never bought into the whole bitcoin buzz, but using a blockchain as an internet index could be interesting.

even better, have something like git for the web - effectively working as an archive.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#118
Taking a step back to before search engines were the main driver for finding content online, who remembers webrings?

Is there a way to update that idea of websites deliberately recommending each other, but without having it be an upvote/like based popularity contest driven by an enormous anonymous mob? It needs to avoid both easy to manipulate crowd voting like reddit and the SEO spam attacks that PageRank has been targeted by.

Some way to say "I value recommendations by X person," or even give individual people weight in particular types of content and not others?

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#119

We could try and revive and improve the web-ring concept. Or more simply, convince the community to dedicate a page of their site linking to other related/relevant sites.

Webrings are still there, they're just implicit. People link within their content to the same resources over-again, or have more explicit footer blocks or aside link stacks.

Search engines use this structure for domain authority.

A search for "link:example.com -site:example.com" would have found that webring in the past.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#120
post #110

Everyone has missed the most important aspect of search engines, from the point of view of their core function of information retrieval: they're the internet equivalent of a library index. Either you find a way to make information findable in a library without an index (how?!?) or you find a novel way to make a neutral search engine - one that provides as much value as Google but whose costs are paid in a different w…

A few years ago there was that blogs thing, with rss... all things that favoured federation, independent content generation, etc. Now it's all about platforms. I understand that "regular people" are more comfortable with Facebook but, other than that, why are blogs and forums less popular now?
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