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Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

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Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

> It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book How do you know? To clarify, you don't know how many people you interacted with that utilized those concepts but you haven't noticed at all.

Body language and intuition.

You're right, there may be times I don't notice. I have no data to prove that.

IME, being in the moment and my body instead of in my head made it apparent that we aren't as clever as we think we are in social situations.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#112
post #4

Definitely read How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. However, just reading a book on this subject is not enough. You will actually have to apply the principles in your everyday life. Dealing with people is kind of like an art. And just like any art (like painting) you can only get better with deliberate practice. Doing this might feel a little uncomfortable at first, but it's how we grow as peopl…

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

It definitely is over-hyped, but it really gives you the knowledge of what type of tools and communication styles and techniques that other people in your organization are drawing upon since it contains all the pseudo-intellectual bullshit that HBR and other Harvard MBA (or Harvard MBA wannabes) you will probably encounter use and look for.

At the very least, the utility of the book is that it teaches you how to play the game.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#113

Two books that really helped me were Nonviolent Communication (Marshall Rosenberg) and Radical Acceptance (Tara Brach). The specific techniques outlined in the books were helpful, but I benefited more from the mentality that you can communicate the same message in multiple tones and receive different results. Some of my colleagues have also done improv comedy courses and experienced the same outcomes. I also received…

Strictly taking everything people say at face value is great way to become somebody who "can't take a hint." The problem is that there are many things people want to communicate but would rather not say because they're likely to lead to uncomfortable situations.

Suppose a coworker offers you mints or gum every time you speak to them. If you only take their words literally, you'll think, "Gee, what a generous person," and miss entirely their true meaning: "Your breath stinks and it's bothering me but I don't want to hurt your feelings, so I'm giving you out where we can both pretend you fixed the problem before anyone noticed."

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#114
Disclaimer: This is my own personal advice. It is different from what has been commented so far, but hope it might offer a different perspective or angle.

Don't believe your labels, even one's you give yourself. Why do you think you are introverted? Is it because you took some Carl Jungean-esque test like the Myers Briggs and it said you were? Is it because your parents and teachers always said you were "shy"? Is it because you have anxiety disorder or depression? You mentioned this last one might be it but aren't sure -- if you have a hunch, go talk to minimally a therapist to find out.

Toss all that shit out the window. You aren't your labels. You are exactly who you want to be.

If you don't want to be introverted anymore, don't be. As some one who was the "shy" kid and introverted from basically age 4 to 19, mainly staying inside and playing video games, it would probably shock most people to tell them that I consistently score "INTP" -- who cares. Take a pragmatic approach to it. If even the thought of being conversive, over communicating, and going to events exhausts you, that's not introversion that's probably some disorder -- you mentioned social anxiety, for me it was depression -- we are human and we were meant to communicate, be social, and relate to others. I am not saying that to say "so you are wrong" I am saying that so you understand. If there's something deep down there that is the root of that, address it. For me, going to therapy helped. For others -- the root of the social anxiety is a troubled pass: an abusive relationship, a missing father or mother, or a relationship that desperately needs mending. We put up our walls and think these things aren't affecting us, but they do. A lot of people think therapy is for people who have things "wrong" with them. I think therapy could help every single person on this earth, no shame in it at all.

The last advice -- treat it like a challenge. Have fun with it. Hack at it. Try different things. Read. A lot. Listen to your body. Best of luck on your quest!

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often tried to find better methods of communicating with people, but I'm still struggling with one major problem: What do you do when someone literally does not react to anything you say in any way whatsoever? I could tell them "Yeah, X sounds like a great idea!" or "Please don't do that, I think X would be very harmful to the project", and their reaction would be the same "OK thanks, guess I'll go do X now". Th…

I wonder if there's a way to ask the right questions so they can come to the conclusion that X is a bad idea, on their own and before doing it. For example, asking about the merits of X, then acknowledging them and asking about possible downsides. If they don't mention the downside you had in mind, ask about other potential downsides. You'll also learn more about their decision-making process, how deeply they've thou…

Is that really what is happening though?

They don't react to my statement at all - I don't think they disregard it, I think they don't listen to it in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#116
post #17

1. Politely greet the people you pass by in the halls. 2. Practice small talk: -Ask others about their lives and thoughts and work. -Listen. Try to have at least one such interaction per day. This will be really hard at first, but it gets easier. Politics is mostly leveraging relationships. You grow them with care and a little attention over a long time. Here's a secret. Most people are uncomfortable talking to other…

The hard part of this Ive found is faking being interested in their answers.

I find it hard to be genuine in these interactions and I think it shows :(

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#117
I wish you luck but here are some things to keep in mind that you can do if you find yourself not into the therapist/self help stuff for whatever reason.

You can get better at knowing what they need vs what they ask for and push back in the form of raising concerns. Realize this is brainstorming and email/slack suck at this. Get in a room and draw what you’re going to build. Tell them why ask x won’t be useful/won’t work. Lastly, encourage a project manager type person to get involved even if informally. Your boss might be a good person for this if you have no one else. They can do the back and forth and some of what I said previously if you can’t. Also have some sort of project committee so only approved projects get your attention. Lastly, charge your cost to their budget. They won’t waste your time for long when it cost them a bonus assuming your company is setup that way. Get the finance guys involved. If there’s a culture of wasting time/resources they can help come up with a plan and they may own many of these ideas.

A lot of this assumes you’re at a bigger corporate company so YMMV.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#119
post #72

I've responded to this sort if inquiry before, so forgive the copy-pasta: >> You sound like you have anxiety problems. What have you done to address your anti-social tendencies? Are you going to a therapist? Do you expect a fairy to fly into your house and magic them away? What job do you think exists where you don't need these skills? >> Having a therapist does not mean you are crazy, and you don't NEED to be crazy…

> "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must-read I'm sorry - this advice, and most of your comment, is bad advice. I struggled with social anxiety for 10 or 15 years before I "cured" myself, and advice like this is what buried me. Reading books and going to a therapist can supplement your efforts, but if that's your main approach you're going to waste years - and when you talk, you're going to sound like a…

Maybe you could write more than three words about your experience and what positive suggestions you have for OP (ie. not "here's what bad advice" and instead "here is some good advice")

Was soccer really the thing that helped you?

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#120
Best Video Blog on how to live a good live, and I think is your real question, is Philosphers Notes from Brian Johnson: https://www.youtube.com/user/PhilosophersNotes

And the simple and best Book to Live with your special Guys in the Company is "Assertivenes at Work" from Kate Back: https://www.amazon.com/Assertiveness-Work-Professional-Busin...

At the End I take a buddhism trail and got rid of this Feelings blowing my emotions to this bad shapes you discribes. Begin with simple Meditation by Youtube lessons.

Live long and prosper Oerb

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