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Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

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Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#111

Post by dominotw »

OJFord wrote: post #27

> As a positive point, all the females in our cohort got dev jobs, including the only one who actually failed the class. Startups are pretty aware of the gender discrepancy and actively looking to hire those with double x chromosomes. Not complaining about affirmative action, just wanted to give you as full picture as possible You should be complaining! Especially given the rest of your story. This kind of thing is s…

one of my female friends who is from the same class as I and is less proficient than me on almost all levels is getting inundated with offers from any tech company of her choice. Meanwhile, I barely get a callback from the recruiter, some of them pomise to call at certain time and never call, adding insult to injury.

Kind of infuriating given both her parents are practising physicians and her whole education was completely paid for, unlike most people who have student debt staring them in the eye.

Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#112

Post by dominotw »

DanBC wrote: post #109
owebmaster wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not. You pointed a false equivalence. Do for me the web search that points women struggling for the right to work in coal mining, be sent by hundred of thousands to war and things like that. This don't happen (and shouldn't!). We are animals, after all, and the biology demands from us (both woman and man) different things. If men could get pregnant, I could bet with you that this would be a good reason to h…

> Do for me the web search that points women struggling for the right to work in coal mining http://www.womeninmining.org/ > be sent by hundred of thousands to war Women have campaigned hard to be allowed to go into "front line combat"; they're already sent to war: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11302533/Wome... http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-military-women-idUSBRE... For the rest, do your own…

>http://www.womeninmining.org/

thats not a site for women * struggling for the right to work in coal mining*, contrast that to womenwhocode.

Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#113

Post by Broken_Hippo »

bbcbasic wrote: post #80
tmnvix wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a good point but I have to disagree with you when you say that "The % of people who get jobs doesn't matter." It does matter. I'm sure you'd agree if it were 1% and not 70%.

Nope still doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if you aren't looking for a career in that field.

If you are choosing between fields or are looking to increase your income, how many people got good-paying, permanent jobs is highly important. It is also important if you are spending money that might be better invested in something else (such as a reliable vehicle or a down payment on a house if you live in the Midwest).

If you simply want the learning, the money isn't an issue ,and/or you don't actually care to land a job with the knowledge, then the job thing isn't an issue. All depends on perspective and desired outcomes.

Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#114

Post by kwang88 »

everybodyknows wrote: post #39
kwang88 wrote: post #37

My company has hired several coding boot camp alumni; some directly from bootcamps, some after a coding bootcamp + some years of work as a dev. We've had good results and most of the grads I know have had positive experiences. It's important to note that coding bootcamps are not created remotely equally -- some have stringent application requirements, whereas many are essentially scams / chop shops. I strongly cautio…

I'd be grateful for specific pointers on vetting the camps. The one in question is legally an LLC, with no industry sponsors, but some association with a local religious college. Interested to see your positive view on the percent of salary tuition arrangement. There are at least two such camps: in SF, and in Seattle.

Have seen good results from App Academy (in NYC in particular) - they follow the business model that I mentioned above. I don't know the details of all the bootcamp alums on my team, and am also unfamiliar with the tuition structures of different bootcamps. My info is also about 2 years out of date.

IMO these bootcamps are producing a basically undifferentiated product curriculum-wise (which, by the way can be learned via self-teaching on the internet). Only a few have real brand recognition. Drive, curiosity, raw horsepower, etc are a lot more important.

For specific pointers: your cousin should speak to as many recent alumni of various programs as she can to ensure that she has a legit program on her hands. Speaking with hiring managers is a good bet as well; "I've never heard of that place" is bad; "That place is a scam" is worse. She should also ask what the pass/fail rate is for students in the program. High graduation rate + upfront payment is arguably bad (shows they're incentivized to just get you out the door).

Best of luck!

Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#115

Post by emcq »

OJFord wrote: post #27

> As a positive point, all the females in our cohort got dev jobs, including the only one who actually failed the class. Startups are pretty aware of the gender discrepancy and actively looking to hire those with double x chromosomes. Not complaining about affirmative action, just wanted to give you as full picture as possible You should be complaining! Especially given the rest of your story. This kind of thing is s…

I observed 3 things about women in boot camps that explain this phenomena outside of affirmative action:

1. They are self selecting to jump into the known gender gap in engineering.

2. Perhaps due to 1, they generally came from STEM backgrounds in great universities (Stanford, Michigan, UCLA, etc).

3. They had better final project presentations and projects than average. Perhaps due to 1 and 2.

If they were driven, had a previous math/EE/mech E degree from a top university, and a great GitHub project why wouldn't you hire them?

Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#116

Post by liquidise »

StClaire wrote: post #50
liquidise wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a dev in Denver who routinely interviews candidates from some of the nations top bootcamps, i can corroborate these claims. Many graduates from these programs are hired by the bootcamp itself, as tutors or web devs. Rarely are these hires profitable to the school, instead the are done strictly to maintain the placement statistics that are paramount to their continued enrollment.

Uh... I don't normally do this, but any chance you guys are hiring? I'm in Denver looking for an entry level position. I can do machine learning

We actually are hiring, but i have no idea how to reach you. If you go to my blog[1], my email is at the bottom of every post.

1: https://blog.benroux.me

Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#117

Post by OJFord »

emcq wrote: post #115
OJFord wrote: post #27

> As a positive point, all the females in our cohort got dev jobs, including the only one who actually failed the class. Startups are pretty aware of the gender discrepancy and actively looking to hire those with double x chromosomes. Not complaining about affirmative action, just wanted to give you as full picture as possible You should be complaining! Especially given the rest of your story. This kind of thing is s…

I observed 3 things about women in boot camps that explain this phenomena outside of affirmative action: 1. They are self selecting to jump into the known gender gap in engineering. 2. Perhaps due to 1, they generally came from STEM backgrounds in great universities (Stanford, Michigan, UCLA, etc). 3. They had better final project presentations and projects than average. Perhaps due to 1 and 2. If they were driven, h…

> If they were driven, had a previous math/EE/mech E degree from a top university, and a great GitHub project why wouldn't you hire them?

The woman in the example given in this thread failed; so certainly wasn't 'previous...degree from a top university' calibre.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not in anyway 'against success' for any woman. The sort of merit-based hiring you described is exactly what everyone should be doing.

But if candidate A is better than candidate B: hire candidate A! Whatever their gender, or fit for whatever other quota; scrap the damn quotas and targets.

The only targets should be relevant capabilities, traded off against cost of course.

Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#118

Post by OJFord »

exclusiv wrote: post #78
jen729w wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called "positive discrimination" for a reason. We're positively discriminating to the benefit of women (or minorities, or whomever) now, to make up for the decades of negative discrimination that these groups have suffered. Don't think it's fair? Interesting feeling, eh. Not very nice, eh. Be glad you haven't suffered it for literally your entire life.

That's nonsense. It's illegal to discriminate based on gender. Your idea of a "make good" policy doesn't align with the laws nor does it make sense to punish people that have nothing to do with any prior discriminations made against the group you are advocating breaking the law for.

> It's illegal to discriminate based on gender.

And yet, it's only seen as a problem if it's to favour the incumbent advantaged.

Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#119

Post by Kluny »

cgriswald wrote: post #44
Kluny wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the women just hustled harder. I know that was the case in the program I went through. 30 of us passed; 3 were women. All 3 women and about 20% of the men got good industry jobs. However, I and the other two women were hustling for jobs, sending resumes, networking and going to interviews 6 months before graduation. Most of the men, assuming they were telling the truth when I casually asked them about it, didn'…

It's entirely possible that the women just hustled harder, thus explaining while all the qualified ones were hired. The problem is with the one who failed the class. What do we know about her? We know that she either was too lazy to pass the class--implying she doesn't hustle--or she is simply unable to pass the class, implying she isn't qualified. Combine this with the current political climate, in which a company l…

It's also possible that she had qualifications in the industry she was hired for besides web design. It's not suggestive of bias at all - it simply tells us that there's something about the candidates that we don't know.

Re: Ask HN: What should I tell my cousin who wants to go to a “coding boot camp”?

#120

Post by Kluny »

OJFord wrote: post #101
Kluny wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the women just hustled harder. I know that was the case in the program I went through. 30 of us passed; 3 were women. All 3 women and about 20% of the men got good industry jobs. However, I and the other two women were hustling for jobs, sending resumes, networking and going to interviews 6 months before graduation. Most of the men, assuming they were telling the truth when I casually asked them about it, didn'…

Maybe so. But your experience is slightly different from what I'm objecting to most - which was a woman failing the programme and getting a development job, while men passed and no jobs or irrelevant jobs. No amount of hustle puts a candidate that failed a 'boot camp' above one that passed in a merit-based evaluation.

Unless she got hired in an industry where she already had experience, and the bootcamp qualification was only tangential to that.
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