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Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#101

Post by brandon272 »

ollieglass wrote: post #51

As a manager I've had to ask people to do work like this. I try to share it out as best as possible, so everyone's getting the least unpalatable tasks for them. I've also made myself available to talk through why it's required. Those conversations have taken my team and I to interesting places. I've discussed brand positioning with developers, and shared spreadsheets of time-to-value models with designers, at times g…

Thank you for this wonderfully articulated post. The term "burning out" can be thrown around a lot but it can also be a complex issue to understand. And it's certainly frustrating if it's happening to you and you aren't sure why it's happening or what the root cause is!

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#102

Post by penguindev »

tomohawk wrote: post #40

You can't care about the problem more than the customer, or you'll go crazy. That is not to say you shouldn't be proud of the workmanship of what you build (not quite the same thing as being proud of the product). Unless you have a position where you have design authority, stop worrying about the why, and focus on the workmanship. Impress those that do have this authority with how well you do with what you're given.…

I'd agree that design and building are separate tasks and they can easily become too complex for one person, so it's best if it's divided. As long as someone 'owns' the design (for good and bad), it's less frustrating as a builder.

It sounds like in OPs case, vague specs means not good ownership of the design.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#103

Post by d0m »

adrnsly wrote: post #48

I know the exact feeling you're talking about - I used to work at a wonderful small dev shop where things moved fast; whole projects were wrapped off in a week or two. Until this one project where we were asked to 'fix' an already written Android app (written by an Indian outsource then sent to Canada). The contract was for a massive amount of money, everything looked clear cut and straight forward, how could we say…

Wasn't it possible to create the exact apps from scratch? You get to pick the technology you like, you don't have to waste time understanding and refactoring those stupid classes.. Sometimes, from scratch means faster, easier, cheaper. There's a famous Joel Spolsky post where he argue that you should never start from scratch.. but that sounds like a case where it would have been worth.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#104

Post by zeteo »

jblow wrote: post #46

I felt obliged to comment because I feel I know what you are talking about and I also worry that much of the advice posted so far is wrong at best, dangerous at worst. I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations in my career so far, many of them highly demotivating. And the best advice I have for you is to get out of what you are doing. Really. Even though you state that you a…

> I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations [...] Early on as a programmer, I was often in situations like you describe. [...] If I could go back to my early career I would mercilessly cut out all the shitty jobs I did

You know, it's hard to believe it, but at some point parents forget what it felt like being a teenager, and senior developers being junior. I know I'm going hard against the grain here, but I think you're better off doing as jblow did, not as he says.

Priority #1: survive, life gets better. In any organization that's large enough to have a pecking order, sh*t rolls downhill. Your CEO meets the customer's CEO and sees some fish on the office walls. He decides that an aquatic theme will increase sales, and passes it on to project management. PMs are slightly bemused, but figure out some web pages that can feature animated fish, and vet the idea with senior developers, who agree it can be done before the next trade show. The senior developer creates the fish_type, group_of_fish and fish_animation tables, grabs a few morsels that are fun to implement (new web technologies, yay!), and passes the rest to you. Congratulations, you're the junior developer at the bottom of the scrap heap! You not only have to deal with all the crap nobody else wanted, but will also explain it as lines of code to your computer. And, after re-implementing several times to address all concerns from meetings you were never invited to, it turns out the customer's CEO had borrowed the office and actually hates fish since choking on a herring bone 32 years ago.

How do you deal with all this? Well, maybe quitting will find you a better job as a junior developer. (Also, maybe an uncle you never knew suddenly leaves you his fortune.) But realistically, the way most people do it is the same as jblow's. You find ways to survive, improve your resume, and eventually move uphill to have more choice in kinds of crap you need to deal with. Sharing your hard-earned wisdom with junior developers will only be the cherry on top at that point...

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#105

Post by leeb »

septerr wrote: post #59
mnw21cam wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other point is that if this is your BF's project, you are in serious danger of building up a load of resentment for him and breaking up the relationship if things get any worse. It may actually be better to tell him that you're not getting on with the project and it'd be better for your relationship if you work in different places. There's nothing wrong with that.

This job is not directly for the startup. I have been contracted out by the startup to this job and the money it brings is important for the startup atm.

I think mnw21cam's point still stands - if working at your current position is "seriously affects the quality of [your] life", you need to prioritize that over making money for your boyfriend's startup, or you'll hold it against both him and the company for making you do something you don't want to.

Take care of yourself first, even if it means a slower launch for the startup! And it sounds like you have good coding practices and are well-regarded at your current position, so hopefully you could find another job that is more aligned with your values. Best of luck!

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#106

Post by mnw21cam »

cesarbs wrote: post #95
mnw21cam wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I burned myself out once and it took at least 12 years to regain full productivity. Ouch. Took me two years. Six months completely out of work and then the rest slowly building up to full time. My workplace bent over backwards to take care of me, which was fantastic. I don't know where you are based, but you may not be in a country where the employee has this level of protection. I would agree 100% - don't let it g…

In which country are/were you?

I was working as research staff in a UK university. They're usually pretty good about welfare.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#107

Post by pm »

jblow wrote: post #46

I felt obliged to comment because I feel I know what you are talking about and I also worry that much of the advice posted so far is wrong at best, dangerous at worst. I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations in my career so far, many of them highly demotivating. And the best advice I have for you is to get out of what you are doing. Really. Even though you state that you a…

OP is totally correct for the most part. And knowing of his work (and having met him in 2007), he knows more than me about the passion it takes to get a project off the ground. That being said, there is the occasional point where a person needs to sit back and analyse their contribution to the product they are making.

The OP is a well-known game developer. Game development is very different from application or web development. I've known and worked with programmers who were brilliant but didn't understand that the feature they were working on was necessary for the client in question. That distinction is important; are you depressed because you care about the purity of the product, or because a client who actually uses said product demanded the feature?

It's important because then the question isn't about a programmer depressed, it's about a programmer who doesn't understand the product and for whom it was made, and that is an important distinction.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#108

Post by 6d0debc071 »

sidcool wrote: post #81

I might be playing a devil's advocate here, but isn't our job as an employee to follow the direction and vision of the management? I am not asking you to sell your soul. It's just that sometimes in a career one might need to do work that one considers below his/her capability. My manager sometimes makes me fill up excel spreadsheets of who is working on what and for how many hours. It sucks, I hate it. But I have to…

> I might be playing a devil's advocate here, but isn't our job as an employee to follow the direction and vision of the management?

Yes and no.

There's something to be said for just knuckling down and getting on with things once a decision has been made. But, prior to that, any half-decent manager who doesn't know the subject area should have a certain degree of respect for a subject specialist telling them, 'I don't think that'll do what you want it to.' (or words to that effect.)

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#109

Post by dgallagher »

shubhamjain wrote: post #78
jblow wrote: post #46

I felt obliged to comment because I feel I know what you are talking about and I also worry that much of the advice posted so far is wrong at best, dangerous at worst. I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations in my career so far, many of them highly demotivating. And the best advice I have for you is to get out of what you are doing. Really. Even though you state that you a…

A hard thing I find in these situations is when people try to coerce you emotionally. "This a very critical job. Deadline is nearing. You can get anything you need". I find it very tough to refuse in such a scenario.

Perhaps take your own emotions into account, and weigh them against what you're being asked to do? Abstractly: If I do A I'll feel good about A, but terrible about B. If I don't do A I'll feel bad about A, but fantastic about B. Pick the one that's most important to "you".

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#110

Post by eevilspock »

adrnsly wrote: post #48

I know the exact feeling you're talking about - I used to work at a wonderful small dev shop where things moved fast; whole projects were wrapped off in a week or two. Until this one project where we were asked to 'fix' an already written Android app (written by an Indian outsource then sent to Canada). The contract was for a massive amount of money, everything looked clear cut and straight forward, how could we say…

> When you're lying on your death bed, and you look back; will you be proud that you spent all that time

This is exactly the explanation I use when people ask me why I quit my high-paying but soul-sucking job, and now working for nothing (on my savings as long as it lasts) on a non-profit idea, and am looking for a job that does real good in this world and feeds my soul even if it pays peanuts.

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