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Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

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Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#101

Post by fn-mote »

Hammershaft wrote: post #67
bisonbear wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been exploring the "AI as conversation partner for immersion" use case for a project I'm building and find it pretty helpful for a few reasons 1. Effectively infinite engaging comprehensible input at your level 2. Fantastic way to practice new vocabulary and grammar patterns (AI can provide correction for mistakes) 3. Somewhat fun - if you view chat as a choose your own adventure, the experience becomes more int…

I just opened chatGPT's voice mode and mocked the worse accented english I could muster asking for tips on pronunciation. chatGPT just told me that my pronunciation was perfect over an over. It's transcribing audio into text and has no sense for details needed to improve conversational skills.

I’m pretty sure the point is to have a conversation with someone (something) who is speaking correctly.

As another poster here noted, the effect of error correction is nowhere near the effect of having correct input. (See the “comprehensible input” poster.)

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#102

Post by fn-mote »

jrowen wrote: post #90
tomek_zemla wrote: post #78

I am building a calm, serious English vocabulary learning application for mostly adult, motivated individuals. The opposite experience to Duolingo. No dancing mascots or childish sound effects. I am betting on attracting young professionals, academics, white-collar types that like books, language and the experience of a white page with classic, black typography. Strangely, through iterative prototyping, the app evolv…

> I am betting on attracting young professionals, academics, white-collar types that like books, language and the experience of a white page with classic, black typography. This is cool, and I've auto-didacted a number of things with resources like this, and I know most here have as well. But, watching the interview with the Duolingo CEO linked in this thread, he's talking about reaching the far larger set of people…

Nobody I know believes Duolingo is in it for anything but the money. To make money, cast the widest net. The people serious about learning don’t use Duolingo because it is so ineffective. Maybe the Duolingo CEO is sincere, I don’t know, but it smells bad to me.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#103

Post by jrowen »

fn-mote wrote: post #102
jrowen wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am betting on attracting young professionals, academics, white-collar types that like books, language and the experience of a white page with classic, black typography. This is cool, and I've auto-didacted a number of things with resources like this, and I know most here have as well. But, watching the interview with the Duolingo CEO linked in this thread, he's talking about reaching the far larger set of people…

Nobody I know believes Duolingo is in it for anything but the money. To make money, cast the widest net. The people serious about learning don’t use Duolingo because it is so ineffective. Maybe the Duolingo CEO is sincere, I don’t know, but it smells bad to me.

That's fair, I understand that it's not the best learning tool but is it doing "good" overall in nudging people toward learning, is it more "educational" than Candy Crush or Tiktok (which he seems to see as competitors)? Genuine question.

As far as CEOs go he did seem sincere to me in a half-business half-believer kind of way. The interviewer asks pointedly about his transition from academia to IPO-land.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#104

Post by encom »

Hammershaft wrote: post #67
bisonbear wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been exploring the "AI as conversation partner for immersion" use case for a project I'm building and find it pretty helpful for a few reasons 1. Effectively infinite engaging comprehensible input at your level 2. Fantastic way to practice new vocabulary and grammar patterns (AI can provide correction for mistakes) 3. Somewhat fun - if you view chat as a choose your own adventure, the experience becomes more int…

I just opened chatGPT's voice mode and mocked the worse accented english I could muster asking for tips on pronunciation. chatGPT just told me that my pronunciation was perfect over an over. It's transcribing audio into text and has no sense for details needed to improve conversational skills.

I've tried speaking danish to ChatGPT and asking it very simple questions. I even tried using complete words and pronouncing them properly (inb4 kamelåså)[1], but it didn't help. I didn't manage to have it transcribe a single sentence properly.

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#105

Post by eudamoniac »

I have found it always true that the more fun, engaging, addictive, fast, easy, etc any method of learning anything is, the worse it is. The most effective method of learning something is to buckle down in a silent white room in an abandoned cabin in the woods with no electricity or cell service, and just study the damn thing and be bored.

So I guess it depends what your goals are with this thing.

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#107

Post by fragmede »

encom wrote: post #104
Hammershaft wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just opened chatGPT's voice mode and mocked the worse accented english I could muster asking for tips on pronunciation. chatGPT just told me that my pronunciation was perfect over an over. It's transcribing audio into text and has no sense for details needed to improve conversational skills.

I've tried speaking danish to ChatGPT and asking it very simple questions. I even tried using complete words and pronouncing them properly (inb4 kamelåså)[1], but it didn't help. I didn't manage to have it transcribe a single sentence properly. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk

I believe you, but I'm surprised it doesn't do Danish. It manages Cantonese though, which I think is fairly niche (Google translate doesn't support it).

Re: Ask HN: Is building a calm, non-gamified learning app a mistake?

#110

Post by D-Coder »

dvt wrote: post #53
carabiner wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's solved, look up comprehensible input: https://www.dreaming.com/blog-posts/what-is-comprehensible-i... The problem is duolingo is particularly horrible and is intended to get people addicted, not educate.

I'm always a bit weary of theoretical stuff like this. The best way to learn a new language is to move there (preferably somewhere where people don't speak or don't want to speak your native language). I know people that didn't speak a lick of Spanish, moved to Spain, and in a year they're basically fluent. Of course, still struggling with stuff they might not be used to: gendered language, conjugations, and so on. B…

I've managed to learn Esperanto fluently without ever moving to... er... um.
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