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Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

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Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#101

Post by adamredwoods »

carlosjobim wrote: post #39
adamredwoods wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently, I've had a co-worker be "okay" with alerts in the middle of the night. I refused because I have to drive my child to school at 7.30am.

If your kids school is more important than your job is, that only means your job is extremely unimportant. Like my job. Your kid is better off not going to school for a day, or arriving late. They're not doing anything important in school. Depending on company, maybe they need to hire people to do important things and have responsibility for important things. Somebody who would prioritize things like driving their ki…

I'm sorry you think this way. The entire human foundation is based upon passed knowledge by means of reading and writing. I feel it's essential. Schooling is one way to do this, and also a means of learning and practicing social skills.

As far as being on-call goes, there are many different ways to be a part of support without a brute-force approach. For example, create a more robust QA process. Another is to create actionable alerts. There are many ways workers can work peacefully and meet director goals.

Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#102

Post by jghn »

sizzzzlerz wrote: post #96

Even more. The two primary reasons I believe it harder to find tech jobs when you're older are 1) Your salary demands exceed the budgeted amount for the position 2) You probably aren't willing to work insane hours any more Even if your skill set vastly exceeds that of a wet-behind-the-ears engineer and can work at a far higher level, be more productive, and produce higher quality work, it's almost impossible to make…

> 1) Your salary demands exceed the budgeted amount for the position

I've thought about this a lot lately. This is true for the obvious reasons, but it's more true than it seems.

As an older, experienced dev I sometimes flirt with the idea of aiming for a mid-level developer job where I can just cruise. I'd expect the paycheck to be proportionately smaller than where I'm at now, but that's fine.

But there's no way this would actually work out. Red flags would be raised all over the place at most companies like this. For one, it'd be viewed as a red flag that I'm cool taking that huge paycut. And then of course no one appreciates being told that you want to come in, get a week's worth of work done in a day, and then clock out.

Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#103

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

drillsteps5 wrote: post #94
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the CEO is 28, it is the head where the fishrot starts. In The Days of Old, the folks running the corporation were almost always in their 50s. They might have been prejudiced towards folks my age (60s), but they didn't have issues with hiring what are now considered "older" folks (40s and 50s), with the only issue being cost (they might be ageist, simply for cost reasons). The prejudice from younger folks is cul…

I agree that mismatch is cultural, and my point was that there might not be a solution because it might not necessarily be a problem. 50yo is MUCH LESS likely to work well with bunch of under-30 yo, esp, if the leadership is all in that age. Is the company that much more likely to blow up and go out of business due to inexperience of the younger guys at the helm? Perhaps, but it's their company and that's how you gai…

Good points. One of the reasons I stopped looking for work, is because the places that did stuff I wanted to do, didn't want me around. The places that would have hired me, didn't have stuff I wanted to do.

They didn't want me, because I'm who I am. In a couple of cases, they didn't even try to hide it.

I took it personal, because it was personal. That's the thing about cultural bigotry. It's an emotional, reptile-brain thing. Right back to the lungfish. Not even primate-level thinking.

But what's done, is done. In the aggregate, it ended up being all good for me. Nasty-tasting medicine, but it cured the ill. I don't really want to go back to the rodent rally. I'm having way too much fun, doing my own thing.

A couple of the places I looked at, are no longer viable concerns, and I seemed to have dodged a couple of bullets. Could I have saved them? Maybe, but I seriously doubt they would have listened to me.

Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#104

Post by bob1029 »

sulam wrote: post #49
bob1029 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always been willing to start with zero compensation or benefits until to demonstrate my value and build trust. It is rare that a company will take you up on that offer though. It really highlights what the money is actually about and how tribal "professional" "business" can be.

That would honestly be an extreme red flag for me if I was considering hiring you. As an older engineer myself, I would never roll the dice like that — my contributions in this industry are public and I have the network to show for it. My time is worth something to me, even if it’s not worth anything to anyone else, and the older I get the more that’s true.

Perhaps we are looking at a good example of the tribal scenario here.

Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#105

Post by jimt1234 »

farazbabar wrote: post #97

I am a software engineer in his 50s, with stints in big tech, big bank and fintech with domain expertise in payments, risk, performance engineering, and data. In addition I have led global teams of hundreds of engineers with outcomes that have transformed multiple Fortune 500. I have been unemployed for a year and a half with no light at the end of the tunnel. Most of my network of similarly older professionals and C…

As an engineer also in his 50s, I can relate, based on one concept: "wanting to work" versus "needing to work". I'm definitely not rich, but I could probably retire if I wanted to. I just don't want to. I want to work; I enjoy it. Many of my friends have retired, and they all seem bored to me. However, many/most people need to work to pay the rent, put kids through college, etc. I never really grasped this concept when I was younger, because, back then, it was all need to work.

I feel like I'm a better employee now, because I feel like I can be more honest. If a manager says something stupid, I feel totally comfortable checking them on it. When I was younger that wasn't the case. I was always nervous about retribution. However, there's a flip-side to this: a lot of managers don't like to be checked. Also, there's exploitability. When I was younger, I never said no to any proposed work, regardless of how it impacted my "personal time". Now, my attitude is, "Work this weekend? Nope. Get a junior to do that. I'm going surfing this weekend." LOL

Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#106

Post by jaennaet »

carlosjobim wrote: post #76
abeppu wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one seriously broken thing is that every company seems convinced their work is important, and scales their sense of how important work items are relative to the company as a whole. Orgs and teams do the same. You can be on a team that runs a service that's a small part of the overall company product offering, which may be a convenience rather than mission-critical to its clients, who themselves may be doing s…

All of us here have been to school and know how utterly unimportant it is. If not, that is a serious case of amnesia. It's a storage unit for kids, guarded by the most dim-witted people from the community. So when somebody says they can't work because of their kid's school, then either that person does not care about their job, or the company is asking for something out of line. It's either of those two options, depe…

"I didn't learn anything in school, therefore nobody learns anything in school. Q.E.D."

Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#107

Post by leptons »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #43
drillsteps5 wrote: post #9

Multiple issues. One of them is reluctance of younger hiring managers to hire older people. At 35 you don't necessarily see advantages that hiring 50 year old will bring you, as you don't have experience to be able to see that. Not sure if there is a "solution" for that as a 35 yo hiring manager will probably have an easier time managing under-35 individual contributor comparing to a 50 yo one. Different perspectives…

When the CEO is 28, it is the head where the fishrot starts. In The Days of Old, the folks running the corporation were almost always in their 50s. They might have been prejudiced towards folks my age (60s), but they didn't have issues with hiring what are now considered "older" folks (40s and 50s), with the only issue being cost (they might be ageist, simply for cost reasons). The prejudice from younger folks is cul…

>When the CEO is 28, it is the head where the fishrot starts.

I had the misfortune of working for two "30 under 30 CEO" led companies. I was in my 40s at the time. Never again. I can relate to the "college, but being paid" description, but for me it was more like "high school, but being paid".

Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#108

Post by jacknews »

p1dda wrote: post #15

I'm 53 (physician) and would like to pursue a second career in programming but realising it's really hard.

Are you just starting to learn? If so I think your chances of getting paid work will be slim.

I started programming on a zx80 and trs-80 clone at 11 years old, and have devoured new languages, methodologies, tricks and tips, computer science breakthroughs, and so-on throughout my career, but still do not have work currently.

Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#109

Post by inetknght »

goatlover wrote: post #83
ilc wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call this "Wearing your uniform." You need to look like you are a person who would be doing the job. You wouldn't hire a gardner with smooth hands, clean shoes, and no dirt under their nails would you? Car mechanics, you can see it in their hands, and the way they act around cars. Every profession has its tells, from what we wear, to our physical traits etc. After a while, you know if someone adds up or not. But pa…

Don't understand what physical appearance has to do with tech.

It has to do with the culture of the company you're working for.

Professional companies are stereotyped to suits and ties, and company attire is often part of company dress code.

Tech companies are stereotyped to kids and what they wear, and company dress code (if it exists) is often super-lax except for executives -- because the executives need to interact with Professional companies and look the part.

There's a lot of in-between, and it really depends on what company you work for and somewhat to what company you want to work for.

Re: Ask HN: Is ageism in tech still a problem?

#110

Post by knutzui »

rootnod3 wrote: post #22

I would wager that it will get better soon. Once the LLM/Agent hype has died down and a few years of junior developers went down the drain untrained and unmentored, the demand for experienced seasoned developers will rise again. This is not to dismiss LLMs entirely, but they always get touted as “they can do ABC, as long as an experienced dev reviews the output”. And with LLMs hindering the growth of juniors in one w…

I've seen this take on LLMs many times, and I don't share the certainty that LLMs hinder the growth of engineers using them.

Sure, if you want to use an LLM to produce code that works you need to have enough knowledge and experience to be able to review and, if necessary, request changes.

However, another (IMO, even more powerful) aspect of LLMs, is their utility as a learning tool. They excel at imparting knowledge about new concepts, because they act as a personalized teacher.

I find it doubtful that use of LLMs will result in less experienced and knowledgeable engineers in the future.

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