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Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

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Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#101
post #85

Here is one top tip from the Chris Voss book: Don't ask for a round number. If you ask for a more precise number it sounds like you have done more research etc. EG Not: "I've looked at my finances and similar roles, and I need $130,000 for me to take the role." Instead: "I've looked at my finances and similar roles, and I need $133,700 for me to take the role."

Yeah. Nah that makes you sound silly (at least for software jobs) unless there is a good reason for it, like currency conversions or peverse tax incentives. There is a tiny chance that asking for 133700 might get a smile at a smaller tech focused company though.

Worked for me at a large bank.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#102
post #15

Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff. But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to mat…

> But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. Unless you have some kind of very unique skill or you have other offers and the company really, really wants you, how exactly are you supposed to negotiate? Every comp negotiation I've ever had with a company has gone kind of like this: [Company]: Here's your offer for $X. [Me]: I'd like $Y. [Company]: Your offer is for $X. [Me]: Well,…

Hiring manager here. The best way to negotiate is to have multiple offers. Hiring is not fun on our side either. Hundreds of candidates with mostly-identical resumes apply for every open posting. Evaluating resumes and interviewing is a huge time suck. Unless we're at the absolute top of the pay band for the role I'd rather give an extra $10K to someone than go back to the pool, but only under two conditions. One, the applicant has to be rated very highly by the interview panel, not just "I'd be OK with hiring this person." Second, I have to believe that there is a reasonable chance the applicant will actually walk away if I don't raise their offer.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#103
post #15

Ok yes this guide is fine, a lot of things are up for negotiation, and I think it’s a lot more widely known these days to negotiate for stuff. But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. They know it’s something you’re supposed to do, but they will try and negotiate things that are not negotiable (like making it a hard ask for extra contributions per paycheck for healthcare to mat…

I think the modern advice that you should always negotiate and ask for more is deeply distressing for many people. They do not want to feel like they are being taken advantage of but they also don’t really want to engage in a negotiation.

And that's perfectly fine. Such people will get less favorable terms.

Patrick's guide explicitly talks about how a lot of people don't want to negotiate. His argument is that if doing something distasteful for a short period of time will get you a significant salary boost, you should try to do it anyway.

Ultimately, if it's distressing to someone to be assertive and negotiate, my first reaction isnt "That's fine! Let's all work together to make things nice and easy for them!" My reaction is "It's sad that it's so distressing, but one way or another they need this important life skill. Let's help them acquire it, even if it's difficult."

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#104
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, as the other letters of the acronym only describe what kind of alternative it is. I think a better way to phrase your critique would be: "acronyms harm the flow of your text - they're best used sparingly"

BATNA is kind of a dog whistle that this is a slighty hostile business deal. Hostile under the hood. Smiles and handshakes on the surface.

That is every negotiation I’ve ever seen, frankly. What else would you expect?

Friendly tends to be called ‘charity’

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But man, a lot of the people out there absolutely still do not grok negotiating. Unless you have some kind of very unique skill or you have other offers and the company really, really wants you, how exactly are you supposed to negotiate? Every comp negotiation I've ever had with a company has gone kind of like this: [Company]: Here's your offer for $X. [Me]: I'd like $Y. [Company]: Your offer is for $X. [Me]: Well,…

Hiring manager here. The best way to negotiate is to have multiple offers. Hiring is not fun on our side either. Hundreds of candidates with mostly-identical resumes apply for every open posting. Evaluating resumes and interviewing is a huge time suck. Unless we're at the absolute top of the pay band for the role I'd rather give an extra $10K to someone than go back to the pool, but only under two conditions. One, th…

People can & will walk away for reasons other than competing offer. It also depends on how badly they want to get a new job. I both have and have seen others interview on the basis of "sure, why not" and if the pot isn't sweet enough then whatever.

That said, people in this position should cite how sweet that pot needs to be upfront instead of after the fact. But that doesn't always happen.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#106
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiring manager here. The best way to negotiate is to have multiple offers. Hiring is not fun on our side either. Hundreds of candidates with mostly-identical resumes apply for every open posting. Evaluating resumes and interviewing is a huge time suck. Unless we're at the absolute top of the pay band for the role I'd rather give an extra $10K to someone than go back to the pool, but only under two conditions. One, th…

People can & will walk away for reasons other than competing offer. It also depends on how badly they want to get a new job. I both have and have seen others interview on the basis of "sure, why not" and if the pot isn't sweet enough then whatever. That said, people in this position should cite how sweet that pot needs to be upfront instead of after the fact. But that doesn't always happen.

But see - that's part of "negotiation" too - you need to make them want you before you hit them with higher demands. If you're up-front you might not even get the interview.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#107
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, as the other letters of the acronym only describe what kind of alternative it is. I think a better way to phrase your critique would be: "acronyms harm the flow of your text - they're best used sparingly"

I am struggling to come up with a sentence where using the acronym "BATNA" provides additional utility compared to just using "alternative" (or "option"). In seemingly all situations, a decision maker is considering their most preferred alternatives rather than their least preferred alternatives.

Because it matters that the BATNA is outside the negotiation.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#108
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am struggling to come up with a sentence where using the acronym "BATNA" provides additional utility compared to just using "alternative" (or "option"). In seemingly all situations, a decision maker is considering their most preferred alternatives rather than their least preferred alternatives.

Because it matters that the BATNA is outside the negotiation.

Why does that matter? I would like to see a sentence or scenario where “BATNA” is not interchangeable with “alternative” or “option” or some other synonym.

I read the Wikipedia page, but I’m still unclear what information I gain from BATNA over just “best alternative” or “second best option/choice”.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#109
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but phrasing/negotiating it this way obfuscates it a little. If you're in negotiations and you ask for $60k/yr more gross, then it's clear you're asking for more than a PA would cost (maybe, factor in total comp for them too and it's probably closer to $65k/$75k). Do people negotiate net?

> Do people negotiate net? Nobody negotiates net. It's not even practical. Your tax situation will depend of the other revenues you might receive on top of your wages and the deductions you are eligible to and your employer doesn't have to know about that.

Nobody negotiates net, but companies will keep in mind an employee's lowest possible tax bracket given their gross (and therefore their highest possible net) when determining the cost:benefit of offering marginal "material compensation" increases (vs other components of total compensation) — both during initial negotiation, and when trying to design later incentives.

Which is to say, if you're making USD$100k/yr working for Ericsson in Sweden (where you're in the highest, 52.9%, tax bracket for any marginal income above USD$83k), they're gonna be thinking differently about how to reward you as a high performer, vs if you were making USD$100k/yr at Google in the US (where that salary would instead just have you scraping the top of the 22% tax bracket.)

Google would almost certainly just give you more money — and would likely continue to do that indefinitely, as even the highest US federal tax bracket (37% at USD$600k/yr) isn't too onerous. Ericsson, on the other hand, might already rather offer you something non-monetary and "cheap" for them (e.g. a company car), rather than biting the bullet on a "substantial, productivity-incentivizing" raise (i.e. one that meaningfully increases your net income.)

And that is why precisely why salaries tend to be lower in many European countries (that have these high tax brackets); and why everyone in those countries instead expects / demands / enshrines requirements in law for tons of non-monetary benefits, like long vacations! "Purely salary" and "salary levels off, then tons of non-material benefits" are both Nash equilibria in compensation space; just very different ones.

Re: Ask HN: Is patio11's salary negotiation guide relevant in today's market?

#110
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiring manager here. The best way to negotiate is to have multiple offers. Hiring is not fun on our side either. Hundreds of candidates with mostly-identical resumes apply for every open posting. Evaluating resumes and interviewing is a huge time suck. Unless we're at the absolute top of the pay band for the role I'd rather give an extra $10K to someone than go back to the pool, but only under two conditions. One, th…

People can & will walk away for reasons other than competing offer. It also depends on how badly they want to get a new job. I both have and have seen others interview on the basis of "sure, why not" and if the pot isn't sweet enough then whatever. That said, people in this position should cite how sweet that pot needs to be upfront instead of after the fact. But that doesn't always happen.

Agreed. Regardless of reason, you need to be prepared to walk away if you are serious about negotiating.
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