Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#101

Post by Dr_ReD » Sun, Nov 06, 2022, 3:36 AM UTC

dnqthao wrote: post #88

Dr_ReD wrote: post #63

I would talk to the manager, explain what's happening, leaving my personal feelings aside. Co-workers speaking non-shared languages in each other faces is not useful in any way and it leads to many problems, way beyond a non-welcoming and non-inclusive environment, way beyond just HR... Moreover, and to answer some strange theories in other comments here, If you're to be excluded from a conversation, the speakers bet…

If they speak another language in the office but not with you (you are not part of their conversation), why is it rude? It is like a different channel where you will be less distracted by eavesdropping people.

Because it's disrespectful (non-inclusive and non-welcoming) to willingly bar someone who can obviously hear you, from understanding the conversation.

If you are "out of range", or in another room, then by all means, go nuts. Speak Elvish or even Klingon if that's your fancy. It won't bother anybody.

But in the presence of others, respect demands to let everyone understand. Even if the conversation is completely irrelevant to them.

And if you don't even apply basic respect, when others will start assuming the worst about your conversations, than that'll be your fault. You'd have brought it on yourself. Not "them", not HR—which sooner or later is going to be brought into the conversation...

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#102

Post by AlchemistCamp » Sun, Nov 06, 2022, 5:36 AM UTC

dnh44 wrote: post #44

csydas wrote: post #14

Just talk to them. In English. I've worked in a multi-language business for many years where I did not speak all the languages, and there are two points I think you need to take to heart 1. No one can guess what you're feeling/thinking, you need to tell them 2. Don't take it personally if people are doing what comes naturally to them Your comment on benefit of the office is understood, but misguided; your colleagues…

>your colleagues don't have an obligation to you or the company to hold every conversation in English. English isn’t my first language (I struggled to learn English as a kid) and I rather heavily disagree with this statement. There’s nothing about the situation that’s acceptable. Communicating well is arguably the most important thing in any knowledge workers job and this is already a difficult task for some people e…

English is so much easier for native German speakers to learn than for native Chinese speakers that it's tough to draw many conclusions from that.

Imagine you studied Chinese for years, moved to China for a job and struggled to read all the documents at work. Then a Japanese person mentioned how at their office at a subsidiary of a Chinese company, they all just read Chinese documents.

While the rationale might be perfectly reasonable, you'd still need more time to adapt because you were crossing a much wider linguistic chasm.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#103

Post by WirelessGigabit » Sun, Nov 06, 2022, 5:41 AM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #92

underdeserver wrote: post #80

Speaking as a former manager, it is your manager's responsibility to enforce English only. Speaking as a non-native English speaker, working in a FAANG office where nearly everyone speaks a certain language that's not English, when visitors or others who don't speak the language are present, we use English exclusively. Anything else is (correctly) considered rude - there are few things less welcoming than someone spe…

> Speaking as a former manager, it is your manager's responsibility to enforce English only. English only rules may violate (US) Federal Equal Opportunity Employment Law, so management needs to be careful to form a policy within the law and apply it within the law. Obviously, business discussions need to be held in a language that all participants can understand, so there's room for a policy in that case. But (in the…

You're wrong.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/oasam/centers-offices/civil-rig....

You cannot prevent 2 people having a personal conversation in a different language from English.

But for the purposes of the business, it is fine to require English, otherwise how do you collaborate?

Now let's imagine a watercooler chat. 2 colleagues talking in whatever language, and a 3rd one walks up, gets a drink and now is by default excluded. Legally it's all good, but in my opinion, that 3rd person will feel left out.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#104

Post by AlchemistCamp » Sun, Nov 06, 2022, 5:41 AM UTC

nomadiccoder wrote: post #75

I felt this way at some point when I worked at LANL. I specifically remember a training module that said it was not inclusive or respectful to require or insist that coworkers speak a specific language unless it impacted your job function. After all, they dont 'owe' you anything to make you feel comfortable in social settings. And even if they are talking about your project that doesnt mean they need your input.. On…

How long ago was that?

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#105

Post by thaumasiotes » Sun, Nov 06, 2022, 8:04 AM UTC

eukgoekoko wrote: post #48

langsoul-com wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bro wtf is with that end? > but may I ask you: what's wrong with you? How do you think, does your attitude have something to do with xenophobia? Completely outa the blue based on what came before.

Xenophobia is literally a "fear of unkown". What I meant to say is that one could rationalize irrational fear of unknown speech with this feeling of exclusion, but could it be it's just uncommon sounds and intonations that make you feel uncomfortable? I've mentioned Italian sales for this very reason: facing a different culture would naturally raise questions within you: - are they talking shit behind my back? - do t…

> Xenophobia is literally a "fear of unkown"

It's literally a "fear of foreigners". It was possible to use the adjective ξένος to call something strange, but that's not the sense used in the word, or the most common meaning of ξένος.

Based on the dictionary entries (see https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=cenos&la=greek#... ), it does not appear to have been possible to use ξένος to describe something as unknown. There is a related sense, "ignorant [of ...]", but that would describe the person who isn't familiar with something, not the thing that is unfamiliar to a person.

For "fear of the unknown", you'd presumably want something like "agnostophobia".

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#106

Post by tga » Sun, Nov 06, 2022, 9:00 AM UTC

It's _your team_, the people you most closely work with every day. You shouldn't need a manager to talk to each other.

Just bring it up while grabbing lunch: "hey you guys, I hear a lot of Chinese and I feel left out, and others might too". If they're half decent people they will remember this next time and stick to English.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#107

Post by dnqthao » Sun, Nov 06, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

Dr_ReD wrote: post #101

dnqthao wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they speak another language in the office but not with you (you are not part of their conversation), why is it rude? It is like a different channel where you will be less distracted by eavesdropping people.

Because it's disrespectful (non-inclusive and non-welcoming) to willingly bar someone who can obviously hear you, from understanding the conversation. If you are "out of range", or in another room, then by all means, go nuts. Speak Elvish or even Klingon if that's your fancy. It won't bother anybody. But in the presence of others, respect demands to let everyone understand. Even if the conversation is completely irre…

Note: to make it clear as I have commented in the other thread, I believe that people should speak English in a discussion that involves people that don't speak the language(meeting, discussion that involved other people). However, they should be free to speak their own language if they want to communicate to each other in a private setting.

You are talking from only 1 perspective. Have you ever try to understand from the other side why they speak their own language?

I have been in both situation (people speaking a language I don't understand and I speak to other people in a language I don't understand) and almost 99.99% of the time it is not about YOU in the conversation. They speak their language mainly out of convenient. They can communicate/connect more easily with their peers speaking their mother tongue. Of course, there should be some courtesy apply here: don't speak too loud, make a lot of noise. But I guess it applies the same when you speak the common language. If they really need your input, they will switch to English and ask you to join the conversation.

> If you are "out of range", or in another room, then by all means, go nuts. Speak Elvish or even Klingon if that's your fancy.

So you are saying that speaking another language in public is forbidden? How inclusive is that of you? It is like British school in 19th and 20th centuries banning children from speaking their mother tongue in school. Does that sound good to you?

> when others will start assuming the worst about your conversations, than that'll be your fault. And you don't want other people to speak their own languages to their peers just because of your insecurity?

>not HR—which sooner or later is going to be brought into the conversation... Do you have any cases where HR involves in this? I really want to know how it goes.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#108

Post by toast0 » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:03 AM UTC

WirelessGigabit wrote: post #103

toast0 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking as a former manager, it is your manager's responsibility to enforce English only. English only rules may violate (US) Federal Equal Opportunity Employment Law, so management needs to be careful to form a policy within the law and apply it within the law. Obviously, business discussions need to be held in a language that all participants can understand, so there's room for a policy in that case. But (in the…

You're wrong. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/oasam/centers-offices/civil-rig... . You cannot prevent 2 people having a personal conversation in a different language from English. But for the purposes of the business, it is fine to require English, otherwise how do you collaborate? Now let's imagine a watercooler chat. 2 colleagues talking in whatever language, and a 3rd one walks up, gets a drink and now is by default…

Your link, which agrees with my understanding says,

> Employees' right to speak in languages other than English may only be curtailed in certain narrowly-defined situations.

I'm not sure how that makes me wrong when I say that management needs to be careful to follow the law?

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#109

Post by brailsafe » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 10:38 PM UTC

eukgoekoko wrote: post #55

brailsafe wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like you might hold some resentment towards her, and that you're not so self aware about alienating colleagues. If she felt like the right choice was to bring it up with management, it would seem fairly clear that she felt you were speaking Russian often enough that it would be an imposition to communicate with you, in a way that's quite common in Berlin and in Berlin startups. Though obviously not as much as G…

You are making too many assumptions about the nature of our conversations just in a single comment. Imagine a situation: a newly joined junior dev is given a task to implement a web scraper. Meanwhile, senior devs sitting beside her start discussing AWS bills for the previous month, pretty much in a casual way. Do you think she should a) be given a chance to participate in this discussion b) carry on with her task, a…

I find reducing distraction is best served by providing sufficient means for a person to isolate oneself physically. If you feel like the conversation is a private one between yourself and another, the correct approach is not to speak in a different language. Not only does that not scale, it only solves your problem, you don't get to decide how the junior feels about it, and neither do they.

If you're a senior, you should have been a junior at some point, so I'd put the question back to you. Do you feel like sitting next to two people speaking in a completely different language would eliminate distraction? For me, I'd still be getting the noise of you speaking, but then I'd also be wondering why two members of my team have openly excluded me from a conversation happening in my presence. It doesn't encourage me to try and do better, and it makes your duties opaque. The way you describe it also sounds rather imbued with infantilism; "don't worry what we're chatting about, just type your little code while we do important grown up stuff".

Would you have been open to her asking you to stop if she felt that was ruining her productivity? It really just seems like a barrier that isn't necessary and shouldn't be there, waving it away as though they should have different feelings about it.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#110

Post by ana_journee » Tue, Nov 08, 2022, 10:31 AM UTC

Switching to another more familiar language can happen without intentionally looking to "talk secrets" or keep other people out.

Letting them know that you are uncomfortable when they constantly speak a language you don't understand and/or sharing the concern of missing out on project related talks or simply learning opportunities that might be sprinkled on all that yadda yadda in the office - is a good way to approach this. Nobody can know what and how you really feel unless you tell them.

In my experience one could actually very well do without hearing all that constant office chatter, actually many people would wear headphones cause they want to avoid hearing it and/or being distracted by it.

Also, if you believe they might be speaking about you - that is most probably not true, it is how we are wired to believe but most people will have their own things to worry and talk about.