Just say no, it's not necessary, some companies are just bad, find a new one. I remember an interview I went to, everyone looked really tired, they had to get some feed from half the world a way in South Africa, in real time. Fair enough I thought, so what sort of hours are we talking - they couldn't, or wouldn't, give me an answer. I declined. Some companies are just bad, find a new one.
Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
101–110 of 151 posts
Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
It can be, but people have to be a bit flexible on both sides. The most extreme example I have is myself, in France, having calls with people in New Zealand. That's an 11-hour difference. Basically, we'd have them at 8 AM CEST, which is 7 PM NZDT. 8 AM is somewhat early by Paris standards (usual office day begins at 9 - 9:30, with many people coming in around 10) but it's still feasible. I don't know how the day is o…
But New Zealand is not Asia, all of Asia is a lot closer time-zone wise than NZ to Europe. E.g. depending on the DST, 4pm in Japan (the furthest east) is 9am in Spain (2nd furthest west), two totally compatible times. The problem comes when you try to make THAT compatible with the California as well, which we determined it's just not possible in my last company.
> But New Zealand is not Asia, all of Asia is a lot closer time-zone wise than NZ to Europe
Exactly. So if it works for Europe with New Zealand, it should work at least as well with Asia.
You should be weary with Spain, though. Even though it's quite out West, they're still using Central European Time (same as Hungary / Poland in the East), which is completely absurd. Hell, even France shouldn't be using CET, but WET / GMT. Only Portugal uses WET, and you have to go East to Finland / the Baltics / Romania / Bulgaria / Greece to switch time zones again (EET / GMT + 2). [0] is a handy map of time zones in Europe.
> The problem comes when you try to make THAT compatible with the California as well, which we determined it's just not possible in my last company.
You mean a call involving the three at the same time? Yeah, I can't see how that could be reasonable for all parties involved.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Time_Zones_of_Europe.svg
Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've been on the other end of that (taking calls in NZ from Spain and the UK) and agree. From what I can tell, working hours culture is very much the same in New Zealand as it is in France. Those in Spain always seem to be working late to suit NZ schedules, but I don't know if that's a normal thing or just our company.
It's not normal to work past 8pm in Spain. However, I know several people happily attending international meetings from home between 8-11pm because 8pm is the standard go to bed time for the kids.
What are the common business hours in Spain? I was thinking everything happens later there, so a 10 PM dinner is not uncommon, because of the ridiculous time zone they use (Central European Time, when most of the country is West of GMT).
Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
#104Become a contractor. The first thing I tell everybody is "my time, my hardware, my office" and if they don't like it i move to the next one. right now i work on an MVP in q4 and i have a 5 min long standup every day and 2 1 hour meetings weekly.
Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the unreasonable part of it is, if the other participants were in the same mindset then there would be no meeting. I'm all for restricting employers from my personal space, however I would expect the same to be applied to all other members rather than be a special case. Personally, I tend to rotate the awkward meetings so it sucks equally rather than weighted more on someone else. As a remote worker, myself a…
That's not their fault or problem though. It's the company's.
Regardless of who's to blame, the problem still exists.
However, if you're unable to work async nor be flexible to accommodate your fellow team members, then I suppose the company's recruitment process is to blame.
Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
#106I work a strict 9am–6pm schedule from western Europe, and interact with both Asian and American colleagues. I simply decline all meetings that are outside of my work window, and it would probably be against the law for my management to expect me to do otherwise ("right to disconnect"). I do know, however, that some of my colleagues in Asian countries feel an non-official pressure to accept late-evening meetings so th…
In a sense you outsourced your pressure to a country where it is less socially accepted to refuse I guess?
I work on a team that is split across North America and Europe, and or standard is that we all avoid meetings outside our working hours.
It’s understood that European folks try to schedule Europe-only meetings in the morning so that there is plenty of time available in the afternoon for NA colleagues, and conversely NA folks keep their mornings open for team meetings.
I personally shift my work day to starting at 7 so that I have an even larger overlap, but not all of us do that and it is not expected of anyone.
Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
#107Yes. I thought this was another "I have OCD and can only program if I sit at the computer in a 5 hour session" thread, but it seems you just have a job without a standard 9-5 schedule. Most software engineering jobs are 9-5, perhaps that changed with startup culture but it certainly hasn't gone away.
Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
#108Medium sized companies (100-300 engineers) usually have really excellent work life balance in my experience. Remote work has made meetings a bit trickier - try to find an employer who aims to have folk in nearby timezones.
This is definitely possible, though.
Regarding on-call: Work for internal tools teams at companies that aren't really worldwide. Internal tools teams, either developer or business facing, usually don't have much in terms of off-hours on-call. On-call expectations are determined more by the product you're delivering than the company culture.
Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
But New Zealand is not Asia, all of Asia is a lot closer time-zone wise than NZ to Europe. E.g. depending on the DST, 4pm in Japan (the furthest east) is 9am in Spain (2nd furthest west), two totally compatible times. The problem comes when you try to make THAT compatible with the California as well, which we determined it's just not possible in my last company.
> But New Zealand is not Asia, all of Asia is a lot closer time-zone wise than NZ to Europe Exactly. So if it works for Europe with New Zealand, it should work at least as well with Asia. You should be weary with Spain, though. Even though it's quite out West, they're still using Central European Time (same as Hungary / Poland in the East), which is completely absurd. Hell, even France shouldn't be using CET, but WET…
Yes I'm quite weary of Spain, I lived there for 25 years! I am also wary of it since it's in the wrong timezone :)
Re: Ask HN: Is it possible to have a structured work day in software dev?
#110There is enough demand for tech workers that you can more or less tune these kinds of things.
I would suggest talking with a recruiter about what you want and they'll probably come back with it in short order.
Lots of tech jobs with no overtime or OnCall.
Management tends to be a little different there. If you want to work fewer hours I would suggest technical roles over management roles.
For starting your own company many people find they work quite a lot. I've met people who run fairly casual side businesses too though so I won't say it's completely inevitable.