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Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

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Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#101

Post by hyperrail »

int_19h wrote: post #90
hyperrail wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you do work on Windows in-box code only, it might not be so easy. Here's another issue you raised with your old job: > 2. Debugging exclusively via metrics and logs, since I can't just attach a debugger to a running server. I find debugging Windows issues fun, but it might not be for you. On rare occasions, you might be lucky even to have telemetry and logs, for customer issues that can't be reliably reproduc…

To be fair, Watson post-mortem debugging is something that pretty much every team that ships a product running on users' hardware has to deal with.

I think what I meant to say is that sometimes even telemetry and logging is unavailable to you. In my example, you might ask for more dumps for your Windows component or Microsoft first-party app on Watson Portal / Get More Data, but even after a few days of waiting you don't get any more, or only one more, because the issue occurs in the wild too rarely to show up in telemetry, or repros often but doesn't reliably produce a useful dump.

As an aside, if you are a third-party Windows application developer, I highly recommend you register your apps with the Windows Desktop Application Program: https://docs.microsoft.com/windows/win32/appxpkg/windows-des... - this will give you access to the same app reliability telemetry, including user-mode crash dumps (.DMP / .CAB files), that Microsoft has. This is only the latest of several iterations of this data access over the years, but it and its predecessors are still badly underused in my non-Microsoft experience.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#102

Post by virgulino »

beefman wrote: post #97
tarun_anand wrote: post #34

I worked in the kernel team many moons ago helping improve the performance and then built the .net clr later. Also worked on a NT Filesystem called Cairo. So I guess I have experienced both kernel dev and backend framework dev. Kernel code is amazing, especially the parts written by the early members like DaveC, MarkZ and others. For me the biggest part was working with a group of extremely smart people who were very…

I would love to hear any Cairo stories you may be able to share!

Me too!

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#103

Post by jpgvm »

Haven't worked on NT kernel, did implement a device driver for it once. Spent first 4 years of my career doing Linux kernel development.

In general, go for it. The level of understanding you obtain by working on the kernel about how things -really- work will make you a better engineer even if it turns out not to be for you.

Things I would caution you about based on the downsides of your current job:

1. Kernels make k8s look simple. Not just simple, childs-play.

2. Debugging experience in kernel-land can vary widely depending on what layer of the stack you are working on and that nature of the bugs. Highly concurrent pieces of any kernel are a nightmare to debug because such bugs are normally race conditions and timings are incredibly sensitive when you get this close to the metal.

3. Whilst you won't have to worry about this initially as you will probably need a few years experience at this level before you design new kernel subsystems I definitely wouldn't consider architecture at this level less complicated than distributed systems. This is because computers these days -are- distributed system. NUMA essentially means you have all the same problems. You do have much more convenient tools for solving them though (at the cost of performance) like HW coherency, etc.

4. Ok yeah, you shouldn't need to worry about this one. You won't be standing up new build systems or anything.

5. Well.. this is the rough part of kernel bugs. When you fk something up you potentially fk over everyone, usually in a very subtle, hard to diagnose and even harder to workaround way.

So yeah, go do it but don't do it because you think you will be getting away from those things because you aren't really. Do it because you think it will be enriching/fun/whatever you want more of in your life.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#104

Post by earhart »

I worked on the Windows kernel in the early 2000s. I really enjoyed it - I learned a lot about PC hardware, worked with some very smart people, and although a few projects were ambitious and ambiguous and didn’t really pan out, most of them were really solid; it felt great to be improving something that really made a difference for a huge number of people. I’m a much better developer, with a much better sense for how code serves business, for having spent time there.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#106

Post by beebmam »

maxbond wrote: post #77
beebmam wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what I'm saying. I said that saying K8s is like X requires that you show how it is like X first, before you can draw any conclusions from that analogy. Otherwise, it is not an argument and should have zero value in a conversation, other than someone stating their (unsupported) opinion.

I think what you're missing is that they didn't give you an argument, they told you how they felt about Kubernetes. And that's a totally reasonable thing for them to do. You aren't owed an argument. But if you had asked politely you probably would've gotten one. When it comes to political discussions, I think it is reasonable to demand that everyone who chooses to participate substantiate their claims and make argume…

>I think what you're missing is that they didn't give you an argument

That's fine, and I'm glad that people are admitting that their comment shouldn't be taken as persuasive, or anything other than self-expression. Many people think analogies are persuasive, but they're often nothing more than illogical rhetoric, and it's a critical blunder to be persuaded by an unjustified analogy.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#107

Post by elankart »

I used to work in the Windows team before I moved onto a team in Azure. I’ve contributed to both user and kernel mode components. You’ll work with very smart people and they will be very technical. Hiring bar in the Windows kernel team is very high compared to other teams in the company. You learn a lot. Work life balance will also be great.

The other great part is the sheer amount of engineering that will go into every feature you will own. I say “engineering” because it’ll be different from any services work you have done.

Tools that are at your disposal as part of Windows Core team is top notch.

Good luck! You will not regret this.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#108

Post by RamRodification »

elankart wrote: post #107

I used to work in the Windows team before I moved onto a team in Azure. I’ve contributed to both user and kernel mode components. You’ll work with very smart people and they will be very technical. Hiring bar in the Windows kernel team is very high compared to other teams in the company. You learn a lot. Work life balance will also be great. The other great part is the sheer amount of engineering that will go into ev…

Sooo... Is Azure any good? (the product, but I guess also the workplace)

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#109

Post by syschick »

jackling wrote: post #89
jvert wrote: post #33

I spent about ten years on the Windows Kernel team. In the 90's, so likely very different than what you would experience today, but probably still a lot of the same problems. (Funny to hear people are still complaining about windbg!) I think you are coming at this from the wrong perspective. Rather than thinking about how to avoid work you DON'T like, think about what you DO like and then decide if the new job would…

Don't you find it difficult to transition from one domain to another?

Disclaimer: I worked at MSFT for 14 years, but that was >10 years ago, in Servers (Exchange, ISS) not kernel. But I've debugged windows stresslab crashes across the network, before windbg got good :)

Is it difficult to transition? Yes, in that if you spend 10 years learning SystemA, then it will take some time with SystemB to build up to the _same level of expertise_ that you enjoyed on SystemA.

The neat thing about learning one OS or system _deeply_ is that the deep knowledge gifts you with frameworks for learning the next-system.

I wrote software on various *nix'es during my university time, then worked on OS/2 (yes, "OS-who?"), Windows, and now I'm at Google, (my work involves 80% Linux 20% Win). It took me some time to re-build my skills on each environment/platform, but it's been a great ride and a lot of fun.

(P.S. earhart@ pointed me to this thread, and says hi to all y'all: Evan, JonO, JVert, LandyW? Dan?)

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone here worked on the Windows kernel?

#110

Post by Veen »

retcon wrote: post #68
EvanAnderson wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an aside: James Mickens is a treasure. If anybody reading this hasn't read any of his articles or watched any of his talks before stop now and do it. You won't be sorry. https://mickens.seas.harvard.edu/wisdom-james-mickens

Reading this man's homepage he comes across as a insufferable egotist. I couldn't find any trace of didactic value among the self aggrandizing rhetoric not possible to convey with infinitely greater humility and persuasion as well as concision. Edit: reference source decades of being quite intolerable myself. Takes one to know one. And by my experience incredible good fortune and more decades to repent.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
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