I consider the lies noise. Twitter/FB etc the Signal to noise ratio is fixed, whereas with RSS I can tune it.
Hackernews is REALLY noisy.
Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
101–110 of 126 posts
Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
#102If you search for "Dead internet theory" and it appeals to you, it'll free you from even considering sources that you don't actually know IRL.
Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just think about that from a logical perspective: if you start your proof with false axioms, you can never produce anything true. You can only produce a universe of internally-consistent false statements. The only way out of the propaganda trap is to find organizations that legitimately care about good journalism. They definitely exist! One place to start might be Wikipedia, the culture there is very much "organize k…
> One place to start might be Wikipedia, the culture there is very much "organize knowledge" as opposed to "achieve some political end". There's a crowd right now trying to remove any reference to neo-nazism in the Azov Battalion wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Azov_Battalion&ac... Please go ahead and verify it yourself. Among this crowd there are the same people that curate the sections ab…
> There's a crowd right now trying to remove any reference to neo-nazism in the Azov Battalion wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Azov_Battalion&ac...
There are always going to be people trying to push certain agendas anywhere.
There's a major difference between an organization whose overarching goal is to produce accurate information, and an organization whose overarching goal is to push for some kind of political gain.
I checked the article you linked to and there's a reference to neo-nazism in the opening paragraph. So your example seems to indicate that Wikipedia is able to withstand ideological attacks (which agrees with my general impression).
> I can easily understand what are the interests in play and what is each side's reasoning.
While I can see that it would be hard to get a feel for what different actors' motivations are from raw facts, I believe that you would still need them as a baseline to understand the propaganda. And it sounds like a lot of (error-prone) work!
Although I speak from ignorance as I am not on any social media and am pretty extreme about filtering my information sources. But I have to say, having had conversations with two people who take this approach, that I am skeptical: both have ended up with very strange/distorted world views and have trouble trusting any institutions (Which makes sense! A core goal of someone trying to destroy a system is to undermine its credibility!)
Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
#104Any event occurring today has to be understood in the context of recent and often not-so-recent history. You can't make sense of what's happening in Ukraine without understanding what was going on during the Maidan protests in 2014. You can't understand BLM without going back at least to the 60s.
On top of this, you need to be aware of the tendencies in constructing media narratives and assess whether they are showing in whatever you are reading. "Cui bono?" and all that. The techniques and patterns haven't changed much and you can read works by e.g. Chomsky to develop a critical sense for what you should look out for.
As others have said, follow the money. The Ukraine story is obviously not a simple good, handsome actor PM vs. evil, Soviet spy dictator. So why is it being painted this way? And what might the real story be? You want a media source that is providing historical context, ideally along with on the ground information from people who are engaged with events at a local level, and also does not hide its ideological position and motive in sharing the story. You won't have the full story after this obviously but it's better than narratives with unmotivated claims depending on cherry-picked sources and undisclosed financing.
I actually find that the far left media can usually provide the greatest insight into a situation, you just have to take the ideology with a grain of salt. They are advancing an agenda but don't try to hide it and their information comes from networks of people engaged in local communities and struggles and who follow relevant political and economic ties very closely. Here is a long interview with a Ukrainian anarchist that can give way more detail on the situation than any paid journalist could hope to:
https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/03/ukraine-between-two-fires-...
Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
The idea that Russian state-controlled media are useful to find the truth in the middle seems a bit far-fetched. Reputable media in most countries call this a war, Russian news says it is a special operation to rid a country that doesn't really have any claim to sovereignty of its Nazi-leader. Chinese media is pretending nothing is going on at all. So applying your method leaves us with: a conflict (but not really a…
Exactly. It's pretty obvious countries are hedging their bets for WW3. Chinese social media is cheering on russian soldiers. Chinese state media calls for "peace and justice"... and blames war on U.S aggression. Chinese state media talks about Chinese Air Power and Shanghai Communique, one china policy. Russia banned twitter and calling it an "invasion" or "war". Russians are getting arrested for protesting a war. U.…
Hell Russia knew about the planning of this war and informed everyone many months ago. The u.s. president went on national news and informed the people that it would happen more than a month ago (and that Russia would win) . Many people simply reject information they don't want to hear
Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
#106This Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events It’s not perfect, but Wikipedia does a good job of being neutral and sticking with facts. On forums like HN, Facebook and Reddit, I rarely bother with correcting people. The sites are not tailored towards factual information, they’re tailored towards engagement. And dis-information is more engaging (people argue about it) than straight facts.
> "And dis-information is more engaging (people argue about it) than straight facts."
Odd statement. People generally don't enter a discussion with the intention of "engaging with disinformation". They are intending to engage in discussion.
Sometimes facts are agreed, with contested implications; other times contested facts and exchange of evidence informing those facts.
> "The sites are not tailored towards factual information."
Tailored? See, we could right now engage in a discussion about "fact tailors" and whether they exist. And if they do exist, is the art of tailoring not about adjusting presentation in a manner that suppresses unsightly truth so the end result looks good?
> I rarely bother with correcting people.
In other words, you're denying those people the opportunity to be corrected by you!
Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
#107I use the HN community as a filter. The highly educated are harder to fool.
Oh, sweet summer child. The educated are easier to fool because they tend not to question their own assumptions.
Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
#108It's hard because "everybody is lying" might be one of the lies. My approach is slow thinking. I really don't have to form an opinion quickly on most things. If ever. I read for enjoyment. Something makes it hard to write propaganda that's actually interesting and enjoyable to read. I've shut down the "engagement" media, even if I agree with them.
I sometimes get a feeling of jealous admiration for people who can so eloquently put down in writing their opinions about things that are happening in the world and can clearly choose sides with their seemingly irresistible arguments. If I wanted to write my opinion about something publicly, I am afraid I could be attacked with counter-arguments and would not be able to properly respond to most of them on the spot. Then I need to retreat and think them through. This renders me unable to express my opinion because of this uncomfortable situation. I don't think it's a big loss though because I can still do it in my private circle.
Sometimes this inability to distinguish facts from fiction, hearing seemingly rational arguments from two opposite sides and trying to choose one side causes such mental fatigue that I simply want to go with my gut and ignore the other side completely. Then again, one day I learn that what I believed to be right before, I believe to be wrong now.
I am genuinely interested, do you have any ideological or political leaning? How do you then know that they are correct and you are not being lied to?
Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
#109I'm an American, living in the US, and for situations like Ukraine specifically, I don't believe anything right away. War is chaotic, and social media makes it more so. It costs me nothing to reserve judgement, because nothing depends on me except that I might accidentally share false info. Better to stay quiet, think, and wait. The truth may come out eventually. No one cares if I personally think it's true, but ther…
There’s also the feel of being played and deceived when something you had strong emotional reaction (i.e. Ukrainian father saying goodbye to his daughters) turns out to be propaganda and part of information warfare.
It is a tough feeling if you make yourself aware that to emphasize might mean you are taken advantage off. Probably not too healthy to experience that too often.
Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with lies on the internet?
#110It's hard because "everybody is lying" might be one of the lies. My approach is slow thinking. I really don't have to form an opinion quickly on most things. If ever. I read for enjoyment. Something makes it hard to write propaganda that's actually interesting and enjoyable to read. I've shut down the "engagement" media, even if I agree with them.
I sometimes get a feeling of jealous admiration for people who can so eloquently put down in writing their opinions about things that are happening in the world and can clearly choose sides with their seemingly irresistible arguments. If I wanted to write my opinion about something publicly, I am afraid I could be attacked with counter-arguments and would not be able to properly respond to most of them on the spot. T…
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