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Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

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Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#101

Post by kybernetikos »

williamdclt wrote: post #93
kybernetikos wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideas are not hard to find, even if you don't feel like you have them yourself there are loads of people pursuing side projects who would love help from someone skilled like yourself. I have pages of side project ideas I'd like to explore but will probably never get chance and would be happy to share with someone who might want to do them. Maybe it's more that you don't get very excited by side project type ideas? Th…

I'm also of the type "Give me a project and I'll build it. Ask me what I'd like to build and I'll have no idea". I'd love to see this list (or part of it), I have no idea what it could even look like. Mind sharing?

Send me an email at me@kybernetikos.com. I can't promise any of them will be useful to you, but you can have a look and see if anything appeals :-)

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#102

Post by bmj »

Jenk wrote: post #59
majewsky wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

Yes that's one of the many caveats. I myself have zero time for side projects due to family etc. so I am fully sympathetic. And side projects are side projects. I was fascinated by a candidate's beer brewing project (there are some very relatable skills in management and organisation, supply chain dependencies, etc) as one example of a non-tech side project.

This is interesting. You say "side project" and I hear "hobby."

(Unless, of course, this candidate was starting a brewery, in which case, that is a hobby turned side project.)

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#103

Post by prepend »

majewsky wrote: post #31
Jenk wrote: post #21

I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than I am of what they have done professionally. Hyperbole time but I think it conveys the message: People do side projects for better reaons than they do professionally. At worst it's because they want to quickly learn/achieve something for their next job. Compared to professional experience,…

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

> risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments

This is true and should be considered, but it’s also kind of the part. If the goal is to find the best candidate, then discriminating against people who won’t have as much time to do side projects, read, study and train more, etc will be likely.

I think it’s fair to consider these things and candidates shouldn’t be treated equally in this way.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#104

Post by ubercow13 »

majewsky wrote: post #31
Jenk wrote: post #21

I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than I am of what they have done professionally. Hyperbole time but I think it conveys the message: People do side projects for better reaons than they do professionally. At worst it's because they want to quickly learn/achieve something for their next job. Compared to professional experience,…

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

By focusing only on work experience you may discriminate against candidates who have previously been underemployed due to reasons outside their control. I don’t think only taking account of employment history somehow makes hiring totally fair.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#105

Post by NikolaNovak »

You'll get answers on every which side. I think they'll tell you less of a perfect "DO THIS" answer that'll work in every situation, and more showcase that there are different employers and different hiring agents supporting different teams and different cultures.

You seem excited about your projects, eager to talk about them, and you seem like you'd implicitly like some recognition/appreciation of them & to have a supportive employer. So my personal, not professional advice, if you have luxury to do so, is to include them and use them as a filter of your employers.

Unless an employee is in urgent dire straits, interview should be a two-way process - not just employer reviewing employee but other way around too (when I interview potential team members, I try to spend at least a third time if not more about the work, team, company, culture, expectations, honest up and downsides, so they can make an intelligent choice if we are a good fit too).

While I am actually currently practically in a camp that doesn't hugely care about people's side projects due to nature of what my team does, if you have something that's important to you, make it part of interview and figure out if the employer/team is the one you'd like to join.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#106

Post by johannes1234321 »

kybernetikos wrote: post #98
IQunder130 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ideas are not hard to find, > I have pages of side project ideas Well evidently not for you. But please don't assume everybody's mind or personality works the same way yours does. You were told to not judge everybody by the same subjective yardstick and your immediate response is to.. project and judge everybody by the same yardstick. The ability to generate side project ideas or the interest in investing huge amoun…

There was no assumption that other minds work like mine in this respect. The point I evidently failed to get across was that there are lots of ideas around and you don't need to generate them yourself . People who like generating ideas generate far more than they can hope to work on and often would love to see others carry them forward.

That's what they do in their job.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#107

Post by koolba »

majewsky wrote: post #31
Jenk wrote: post #21

I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than I am of what they have done professionally. Hyperbole time but I think it conveys the message: People do side projects for better reaons than they do professionally. At worst it's because they want to quickly learn/achieve something for their next job. Compared to professional experience,…

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

> How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

There’s nothing unfair about preferring to hire someone who’s personal time is spent working in the same field as their job. All things being equal, I’ll pick that candidate over the alternative as it demonstrates genuine interest in the field as a pursuit, not just a career.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#108

Post by NikolaNovak »

austincheney wrote: post #39

My experience is that side projects are 90% ignored. They are treated strictly as line items like education. I got furious tired of this so on my last resume I treated my employment history strictly as employment history. A list of employers with dates and dates of promotions plus a sentence or two what I worked on. Supremely lowered emphasis. I also put my personal projects into a separate section above my employmen…

>>"a mention that I am not waiting on administrative approval or a budget authorization to innovate".

I think what gets lost in a lot of these threads is that different employees, and different employers, look for different things. And that's OK. There's filtering going on all sides and not everybody is a right fit.

For example - depending on how you phrase that sentiment on your resume, you might be an immediate No for our team - we are in a very traditional production mode with a procedure-focused client, and the sentence is telling me you might not follow process, wait for approvals, engage the team and client, and will just do your own thing. That may or may not be what you're saying, as I said it depends on the phrasing... But! That may be in fact excellent and mutually beneficial filtering - you probably don't want to be on my current team, and the ideal company/team for you may see that very same statement as a positive signal :).

My point is - not all filtering is bad. In threads like this we focus on "doing / not doing this on a resume will be a red flag for many employers" - but that's not necessarily a wrong thing. It's like dating - some people will advise "don't be yourself", but I ask - Why? Sure, be a good version of yourself on first date / interview, but be fundamentally honest what both of you are looking for. You don't have to have relationship with everybody, you don't have to get hired by everybody. You need to find that one person/job that works :)

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#109

Post by ricardobeat »

Osiris wrote: post #56
dannyw wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I am trying to hire someone into my team, I want to make use of all relevant and appropriate signals that can help me make a better decision. I consider side projects to be an appropriate and often valuable signal. While it is unfortunate that side projects have some selection bias against those who are time-poor, it also feels wrong to me to discriminate against people who can demonstrate their skills and impress…

I am not an ideas guy. Give me a project and I'll build it. Ask me what I'd like to build and I'll have no idea. In 15 years I've had 1 side project. I'm a staff engineer.

It depends a lot on what field you are in. For consumer-facing, web or mobile products, engineers who are able to speak the product language, collaborate on planning and feature development are highly valuable. That requires some investment into product and design skills, and it's a lot easier to start onto that path with side projects.

Re: Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects on your CV?

#110

Post by zrail »

koolba wrote: post #107
majewsky wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified candidates who don't have time for side projects because of other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly?

> How do you avoid treating such candidates unfairly? There’s nothing unfair about preferring to hire someone who’s personal time is spent working in the same field as their job. All things being equal, I’ll pick that candidate over the alternative as it demonstrates genuine interest in the field as a pursuit, not just a career.

The obvious downside is that you're missing out on more diverse perspectives. People who spend time outside of work on things unrelated to their field, whether that's as a caregiver or unrelated hobbies, will look at the world differently than someone who dedicates most of their time to their craft.
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