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Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

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Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#101

Post by gamblor956 »

reasonabl_human wrote: post #42
mchusma wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, in some jurisdictions in the US, businesses cannot represent themselves. Which is a travesty for companies like this guy, who doesn't even have that as an option. I don't actually know about patent law, I just have had an experience with a frivolous lawsuit for a low-ish dollar amount that it would cost more to defend than lose. Because we couldn't represent ourselves, we just had to let it go to default…

What jurisdictions include such restrictions? Just curious, have never heard of this.

Actually, most states have restrictions against non-attorneys representing a business in court. (See for example for CA Merco Construction Engineers v. Municipal Court.)

Otherwise however a business can represent itself in court, so long as its representative is a practicing attorney. Many states (but not all) won't require the attorney to be licensed in the state of litigation so long as they are licensed elsewhere.

Also, all states will allow a business to represent itself in small claims courts, where attorneys are not allowed unless they happen to be an employee of the business.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#102

Post by kkielhofner »

gamblor956 wrote: post #90
kkielhofner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risk, as I see it, is multi-fold: - There's definitely no privilege with a competitor. The only people you should provide ANY detail or discussion on any of this are your attorneys. Full stop. That includes this post and discussion. - You signal to your competitors the very weak and vulnerable position you're in. Many will be happy to dance on your grave... - Business can be absolutely ruthless. I wouldn't put it…

There's definitely no privilege with a competitor. Telling a competitor that you are being sued by a patent troll does not impair confidentiality. And if they are a true competitor, it is very likely that they have also been sued by the patent troll, or are next on the list, and may join in multi-party litigation against the troll. You signal to your competitors the very weak and vulnerable position you're in. Maybe…

"Successful" businesses are ruthless at any size. Due to litigation, etc we have internal documents and records dating back to the 80s that demonstrate how ruthless Microsoft (as one example) was even at a time when they were relatively small.

I'm not saying this is always the case. I'm saying that unless you're completely desperate or absolutely know otherwise it's the safer assumption.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#103

Post by jblake »

ajb wrote: post #92
jblake wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. I have not personally been served, I found out about it via emails from two different patent attorney firms offering their services, with the lawsuit attached as a courtesy. The lawsuit looks legit to me. I live in Tahoe so don't get mail but will check today and also check with my registered agent in Reno. Can you recommend me a patent attorney? Any idea on how much this could cost?

That sounds strange. If you have really been sued you may be able to find out on PACER ( https://pacer.uscourts.gov/ )

Yes, my case is on Pacer.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#104

Post by belter »

foobarbazetc wrote: post #88
syedkarim wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't had any luck with this approach. In some cases, the good-lawyer-you-know will respect the intellect of a lawyer from another firm that has a specialty in IP law. And then the referral will get passed down to an associate partner who is just overseeing the work of junior lawyers. In that scenario, the referral from the good-lawyer-you-know had no real value. The other scenario is that the good-lawyer-you-kno…

Lawyers, like any other profession, are 95% incompetent. Finding the 5% that are competent is harder than it looks. And the hourly rate and/or physical location of said lawyer bares no correlation to competence level. And once you find that person they usually get scooped up and become GC for some VC funded startup or whatever because word travels.

Agree. The same applies by the way, to International Tax Advisers and specially if you are doing business across several countries in EU.

I paid 200 to 300 dollars per hour for International Tax Consultants, that were unable to understand the most common cross country tax scenarios, like "triangular taxation". At the same time, very cheap and experienced "regular accountants" provided, clear, concise and correct advice.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#105

Post by kkielhofner »

Andrew_Russell wrote: post #44

I am an IP litigator, and I have dealt with patent trolls repeatedly. I have taken these kinds of cases pro bono in the past for small companies (including through the EFF attorney referral list, https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance ), and I know that others have as well. There are definitely low-cost and pro bono (free) options out there for very small businesses. The EFF attorney referral list is a good place…

Wow, this is fantastic information and an amazing offer!

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#106

Post by RedditKon »

Andrew_Russell wrote: post #44

I am an IP litigator, and I have dealt with patent trolls repeatedly. I have taken these kinds of cases pro bono in the past for small companies (including through the EFF attorney referral list, https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance ), and I know that others have as well. There are definitely low-cost and pro bono (free) options out there for very small businesses. The EFF attorney referral list is a good place…

Good guy counsel

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#107

Post by ghaff »

stinos wrote: post #76
fallingknife wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty common for someone doing business in the US. Do you have any friends from school who are lawyers? That could be a good start. Or someone else you know who has been involved in litigation. A Google search for IP lawyers in your area couldn't hurt either. You can usually get a little bit of free advice over the phone too.

Maybe the thing is I'm not in the US but in Western Europe. I'm not sure if it's representative but from seeing US movies/series (in so far those are representative), reading other comments here etc I do get the impression there's more of a 'lawyer up' culture in the US than here. Plus I'm perhaps also in the 'wrong' bubble. I.e. most people I know who own a business are simple one-man companies / contract workers, m…

Your accountant probably knows lawyers. He may not know patent lawyers however.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#108

Post by major505 »

Andrew_Russell wrote: post #44

I am an IP litigator, and I have dealt with patent trolls repeatedly. I have taken these kinds of cases pro bono in the past for small companies (including through the EFF attorney referral list, https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance ), and I know that others have as well. There are definitely low-cost and pro bono (free) options out there for very small businesses. The EFF attorney referral list is a good place…

I'm curious. Can you counter sue a company like that? Since they do affect productive companies, that must be some law against that...

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#109

Post by vasco »

The easiest and most cost effective way, though not one that minimises risk the most, is to have you (if you're technical which I assume you are since you say you're a 1 person company) analyse the claims in the patent and figure out why it doesn't apply to your tech, based on the tiniest detail that is different between your implementation and their claims. Then reply to them saying you've had your engineers review the claims and none of them apply, and thank them for giving you the chance to license their IP, but that in this case it's not going to be necessary. I've seen this work a handful of times and it minimizes lawyer fees.

If they come back to you insisting that you're infringing or if you don't have the capacity to do this analysis, or if your analysis is that you indeed do what the patent describes in the same way, I would involve a lawyer. But I wouldn't do it right out of the gate for the first look at the claims as this is your easiest way out.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#110

Post by kkielhofner »

restingrobot wrote: post #91
kkielhofner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risk, as I see it, is multi-fold: - There's definitely no privilege with a competitor. The only people you should provide ANY detail or discussion on any of this are your attorneys. Full stop. That includes this post and discussion. - You signal to your competitors the very weak and vulnerable position you're in. Many will be happy to dance on your grave... - Business can be absolutely ruthless. I wouldn't put it…

I think you're drastically overestimating the competitive nature of business. I don't know your personal experience, but this sounds like a naive perspective. The number one thing a business cares about is the bottom line. None of these options specifically help the bottom line, especially considering that OP is a one person shop. There is simply no way they are big enough to matter to a large company, (why would the…

I really enjoy and appreciate the sentiment expressed in posts like these. I wish my experience more closely matched the decency and reasonableness expressed here. Unfortunately it doesn't.

The OP has been provided with copies of lawsuits that sound like they may have been resolved one way or another. OP doesn't sound like they have any resources to assist in the matter.

This would likely incur additional expense on their part (as OP is unlikely to contribute much to the legal fight) and enable a competitor. One immediate impact to the bottom line and potential future impact by saving another competitor in the field.

Assuming the competitors are currently or have incurred expense in dealing with it, the only reason left (as I see it) would be altruism on their part in banding together with a competitor.

There aren't many examples of this actually happening for a reason.

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