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Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

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Re: Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

#101

Post by eganist »

proactivesvcs wrote: post #85
eganist wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would a better aim be that any person can choose, or choose not, to proffer their pronouns, and feel equally comfortable either way? How do you mitigate the risk of minimal usage of pronouns by cis persons compared to non-cis folks? That's where the challenge lies - outsized non-cis usage of pronouns exposes them to hatred by those with bias, hence the desire for usage by cis folk.

I am not sure what risk you mean here and I struggle to see how a rational person can infer that I mean hatred when I introduce myself as "proactivesvcs", "Adam" or "Mr Piggott". I think that yes, everyone should feel that they can offer their pronouns, unsolicited, and I believe that we should encourage that this is an acceptable behaviour, since then eventually, it'll be something we don't even have to discuss. But…

> I am not sure what risk you mean here and I struggle to see how a rational person can infer that I mean hatred when I introduce myself as "proactivesvcs", "Adam" or "Mr Piggott". I think that yes, everyone should feel that they can offer their pronouns, unsolicited, and I believe that we should encourage that this is an acceptable behaviour, since then eventually, it'll be something we don't even have to discuss. But inferring hatred strikes me as a very acute form of assuming bad-faith.

Ah, from what I'm reading, it doesn't seem that my message registered. Let me try conveying it another way.

Taylor Jones introduces herself with the pronouns she/they to a new group of friends. The new group of friends is unaccustomed to forward declaration of pronouns, and among them, a few in the group perceive Taylor as being different from themselves as a consequence of their unfamiliarity with pronoun declaration. Thus begins the Othering of Taylor. (Othering: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/other-as-a-ver...)

On the flip side, Taylor Jones introduces herself with the pronouns she/they to a group of friends who all then share their own pronouns for the sake of clarity. Because this practice is ingrained in the group already, it's less likely that some in the group would perceive Taylor as being "Other" to them.

Does this help?

Re: Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

#102

Post by alpaca128 »

gruez wrote: post #75
raxxorrax wrote: post #30

We are not required to do this by business, however there is now state legislature that requires that any job posting must include explicit naming of genders male/female/diverse. That is männlich/weiblich/divers in German (m/w/d abbreviated, you will find it on every job posting or you face serious fines). Most people call it männlich/weiß/deutsch already, which translates to male/white/German. I don't think it is a…

> We are not required to do this by business, however there is now state legislature that requires that any job posting must include explicit naming of genders male/female/diverse. That is männlich/weiblich/divers in German (m/w/d abbreviated, you will find it on every job posting or you face serious fines). I don't get, why would job postings (as in, the ad for the job, not the candidate's application for the job) r…

The short answer: German is not English.

The German language allows for both male and female forms of most job descriptions(like with actor and actress). It doesn't help that we have a male, female and neutral form of "the" which are seemingly randomly used for certain words, and often also differently when used in a plural form.

This mixed with gender debates has lead to a lot of controversy and many more or less wild suggestions for "fixing" the language.

The explicit mention of male/female has been mandatory for quite a while, and now that "diverse" was added as a third officially recognised gender this is now required as well. The whole reasoning behind this is that hiring decisions must not be based on gender, so companies also have to clearly indicate that - whether that actually reflects reality is another can of worms.

Re: Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

#103

Post by ceejayoz »

hasmolo wrote: post #64
pX3q54Q55945w7E wrote: post #39

I work at a very left-leaning SV unicorn. Most people don’t advertise their pronouns, but quite a few do. I’m mildly peeved by this. To me the practice feels like taking off one’s lower body half garment to expose the genitalia. “See? This is my gender.” What difference does this make in a professional context? Our culture has put so much emphasis on treating all genders (or no gender) exactly the same: that was the…

gender and sex are not correlated. one is a preference and the other a biological status. gender indicates to people where you view your place in the social structure, sex describes your physical or hormonal status (not one to one correlation, good points)

They're absolutely correlated. The correlation coefficient isn't 1.0, though.

Re: Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

#104

Post by baking »

jorams wrote: post #46
clearcarbon wrote: post #31

I am a white cis male. Normalising the statement of preferred pronouns is very important for people who's gender identity differs from their assigned sex at birth. I state my pronouns on both my social media and work emails. Your statement of being "LGBT / neutral" seems strange to me, being neutral on whether other human beings should have the same rights I enjoy does not seem to be something I can be neutral on. I…

> Your statement of being "LGBT / neutral" seems strange to me I think the / in that sentence is supposed to be read as "and", so: > I am LGBT and neutral regarding the the use of pronouns.

I read it as:

> I am lesbian, gay, bi-, trans-, and neutral regarding the the use of pronouns.

which doesn't make any sense.

Re: Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

#105

Post by pseudalopex »

pseudo0 wrote: post #91
formerly_proven wrote: post #25

Diversity questions aside, some given names are ambiguous. Some names are not, but may have different (assumed) genders depending on the language. In those cases it may be helpful to add a "Mrs"/"Mr" or similar, just to save people the embarrassment of addressing a woman as a man or vice versa. And isn't a "Mr"/"Mrs" a sort of pronoun spec as well? You're saying "use the usual pronouns for females/males".

If you're not sure, you can always just use the person's given name instead of a pronoun. This works 100% of the time, while pronouns in a signature block aren't very helpful if you're referring to someone who got CCed but has not replied to an email chain.

Often but not always. Given name is too informal in some situations. Completely avoiding pronouns can sound awkward too.

Re: Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

#107

Post by proactivesvcs »

eganist wrote: post #101
proactivesvcs wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what risk you mean here and I struggle to see how a rational person can infer that I mean hatred when I introduce myself as "proactivesvcs", "Adam" or "Mr Piggott". I think that yes, everyone should feel that they can offer their pronouns, unsolicited, and I believe that we should encourage that this is an acceptable behaviour, since then eventually, it'll be something we don't even have to discuss. But…

> I am not sure what risk you mean here and I struggle to see how a rational person can infer that I mean hatred when I introduce myself as "proactivesvcs", "Adam" or "Mr Piggott". I think that yes, everyone should feel that they can offer their pronouns, unsolicited, and I believe that we should encourage that this is an acceptable behaviour, since then eventually, it'll be something we don't even have to discuss. B…

I'm with you now. If we all open with pronouns, it speeds up the acceptance as a societal norm.

I am not going to argue with you because I'm not sure there is much of an argument, heh, but I have a strong suspicion that if I were to have offered pronouns in the last say, 30 introductions I made in person, most of the other parties would be baffled, ask why, then may think they have to coach their language around me. I hope we'd both agree it may carry a certain stigma with it. As it happens if I walked in the door of a customer the second time and she said "Ah, the ginger menace returns!" I would laugh and tell her that she better believe it, having taken no offence. Perhaps I'm making a false equivalence here to excuse my current viewpoint?

Re: Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

#108

Post by jgwil2 »

dentemple wrote: post #47
formerly_proven wrote: post #25

Diversity questions aside, some given names are ambiguous. Some names are not, but may have different (assumed) genders depending on the language. In those cases it may be helpful to add a "Mrs"/"Mr" or similar, just to save people the embarrassment of addressing a woman as a man or vice versa. And isn't a "Mr"/"Mrs" a sort of pronoun spec as well? You're saying "use the usual pronouns for females/males".

This. Even in the West, we have plenty of unisex names that could easily fit both men and women. E.g., "Alex", "Morgan", "Reese", "Taylor", etc. For non-Western names, not everyone would be familiar with the cultural context behind the language's naming schemes or gender context.

Yep, in France it is recommended that if you have a non-Western name, you put "monsieur" or "madame" in front of your name on CVs, etc. to help prevent confusion on the part of potential readers.

Re: Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

#109

Post by pseudalopex »

baking wrote: post #104
jorams wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your statement of being "LGBT / neutral" seems strange to me I think the / in that sentence is supposed to be read as "and", so: > I am LGBT and neutral regarding the the use of pronouns.

I read it as: > I am lesbian, gay, bi-, trans-, and neutral regarding the the use of pronouns. which doesn't make any sense.

LGBT means any of the above. Like STEM.

Re: Ask HN: Does your employer want you to state pronouns in email signature?

#110

Post by [deleted] »

JohnCohorn wrote: post #55

At a startup in TX we have been encouraged at various times to place them in email signatures and other communications. I’ve never felt particularly pressured to, it’s presented as a suggestion for being actively inclusive. It sends a signal, which perhaps is the point(that could be perceived positively as being welcoming or negatively as empty virtue signaling), but I wonder if it’s actually all that helpful. I can’…

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