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Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

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Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#101
To my knowledge there is no performance management as such (at least in my subsidiary). We have a mandatory quarterly review, but it's intent seems to be to maintain the manager-employee relationship to at least a bare minimum, and to offer a platform to collect data if someone is really, really not pulling their weight.

Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been at $megacorp for a few years. We just completed yet another formal, annual review. It would be easy for me to look at the process and say it is needlessly structured, time consuming, and has never had any surprises. That said, I once worked for many years at a small company with no formal review process at all. At this place, there was practically no communication from upper management about how they though…

Thanks for this comment. Can you please share more details on how the process is structured at your company?

Not the OP but sounds like Google’s “Perf” process. You can take a search through HN and get a couple of accounts. Generally; you write how well you did, then you get a couple of peers to confirm it and give you feedback. Then your manager works with a bunch of other managers to “calibrate” to make sure their view of the world is not skewed (think you did poorly but you actually did well and vice-versa). Then you receive a rating based on that calibration.

Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#103
From a task-oriented perspective, developer A can seem more productive than developer B because developer A marked more tasks as finished than developer B.

The problem is that marking a task as finished does not mean that its deliverable is solid. A developer can game the system by leaving technical debt behind for others to fix. In this way, the developer is stealing productivity from others, by forcing them to spend more time reading, debugging, refactoring their half-baked code.

A neophyte manager may buy into this approach to performance, and even encourage it. But after a few iterations of this unsustainable practice of leaving tech-debt behind for no reason, reality sets in: now you need an army of engineers to get things done because the system becomes fragile and complicated. And you also need an endless amount of documentation that is constantly getting out of sync.

In a way, under poor performance management rules, development becomes like a game of pool: it's not only about having a higher score, but also about making it more difficult for others to have a high score. If you want high productivity, recognize this and penalize it.

Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#104
post #24

It's all honestly completely useless. I've never had a useful performance review at any company ever. It's either I'm doing bad, and know it, and that is either my fault or due to reasons outside of my control. Or I'm doing well, and know it. Honestly, sometimes at places things were so bad that I felt I was doing terrible, but I was actually keeping the team going by pushing past a lot of tricky issues. Really I thi…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#105
post #24

It's all honestly completely useless. I've never had a useful performance review at any company ever. It's either I'm doing bad, and know it, and that is either my fault or due to reasons outside of my control. Or I'm doing well, and know it. Honestly, sometimes at places things were so bad that I felt I was doing terrible, but I was actually keeping the team going by pushing past a lot of tricky issues. Really I thi…

I wish I had that kind of insight into my ‘performance’ pre-review! I’m at a FAANG right now and given my interactions with my manager alone, I figured I was bombing performance-wise (constant complaints about my work, refuses to acknowledge any accomplishments, super angry at me during one on ones, assigns piles of work that ‘need’ to be done by Monday on Friday at 6pm and then doesn’t even acknowledge the completio…

Or just talk to them regarding how you feel. I concur with one of the commenters below regarding FAANG - you rarely get good feedback if your manager is not supportive of you.

Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I had that kind of insight into my ‘performance’ pre-review! I’m at a FAANG right now and given my interactions with my manager alone, I figured I was bombing performance-wise (constant complaints about my work, refuses to acknowledge any accomplishments, super angry at me during one on ones, assigns piles of work that ‘need’ to be done by Monday on Friday at 6pm and then doesn’t even acknowledge the completio…

Stop your manager in their tracks next 1:1 and state you have some feedback about how you're feeling here. Start by noting that it's a very stressful time right now and that these concerns are even more important for you. Your manager would likely be hurt if you left and good managers appreciate upwards feedback so that they can correct on their side. The fact that the performance rating is good means your manager pr…

> Stop your manager in their tracks next 1:1

BAD idea with most managers. Your manager is likely to be vindictive and insecure if confronted like that. Even with peer reviews in place managers have disproportionate influence on your reviews, and promo/comp decisions (something you readily acknowledge). If the manager treats you with disdain, it's almost impossible to fully reverse that - it's just human nature, let alone do so through confrontation.

The best thing is to move on to greener pastures, of which there's vast abundance at any FANG. People can move around easily there by design: that way shitty managers get naturally de-staffed. Anything else is a sunk cost fallacy. Do yourself a favor, and go to a team where you're appreciated, respected, and can work alongside decent people. Do not tolerate this abuse. Otherwise your career will stall, you won't be able to do anything about it, and you'll feel miserable throughout.

Source: been there, done that.

Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#107
post #88

I've never worked anywhere that OKRs are actually taken seriously or followed through. They'll get rolled out with a big hype, people will fill them out with varying degrees of diligence and understanding of how OKRs are supposed to work. 3 months later they're already forgotten and out of date. Some managers will try to keep it going for their teams, because that's what they were told to do, but that'll peter out on…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been at $megacorp for a few years. We just completed yet another formal, annual review. It would be easy for me to look at the process and say it is needlessly structured, time consuming, and has never had any surprises. That said, I once worked for many years at a small company with no formal review process at all. At this place, there was practically no communication from upper management about how they though…

Thanks for this comment. Can you please share more details on how the process is structured at your company?

Sure -- once per year:

- Write up self review. 1-2 pages to highlight what you worked on and accomplished, who you helped, why it matters. Score yourself on various dimensions of how good of a job you are doing (working with others, getting stuff done, etc.)

- Nominate 3-4 people to give you peer reviews. Best to pick people who can speak to your work, ideally with some folks from outside your particular group, and ideally with some seniority.

- Managers decide who to ask for peer review about whom. You'll get asked by various managers for feedback about their reports. Write and submit this feedback -- could be as short as a paragraph, more typically 2 or 3 paragraphs: what did you work on with them, what did they do achieve, what could have gone better? I've probably given feedback for 5-10 people on average.

- Manager synthesizes all of this into a report, score you on the same dimensions.

- Manager meets with you, gives you their report, goes over it with you. There's a lot to this meeting. It's a review of how they see your work, a comparison of your self-scores and their scores to get on the same page, a discussion of noteworthy feedback from others (positive and negative), a chance to defend yourself against any negative feedback, and a discussion of ideas for addressing any concerns. Typically there is also a lot of goal-setting for the upcoming year, and more generally a discussion of how things are going, how happy you are, and so on.

- Formally acknowledge that you discussed the report with your manager (checkbox in some system). This also gives you a chance to formally comment on the report, I imagine in case of some dispute.

- Followup meeting, some time later, deals with compensation adjustments, promotions, etc. This is kept separate from the review itself.

Effort level has been perhaps 2-3 days per year for writing up all the reviews. I'm sure it's worse for managers.

Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#109
post #24

It's all honestly completely useless. I've never had a useful performance review at any company ever. It's either I'm doing bad, and know it, and that is either my fault or due to reasons outside of my control. Or I'm doing well, and know it. Honestly, sometimes at places things were so bad that I felt I was doing terrible, but I was actually keeping the team going by pushing past a lot of tricky issues. Really I thi…

This is sad, when I read it I think, "This person has never had an actual manager, just people faking it badly."

That said, it isn't too unusual in my experience because people who are good engineers usually get told "you should go into management if you want to keep advancing" but they don't tell them "Oh, and this is a completely different job than you have been doing and none of your skills will apply, kthxbye!"

For a long time in my career I didn't want to be a manager because I didn't trust myself to manage well. And it took a really bad manager at Google to educate me on what the job of a good manager is. I stumbled around a bit but figured out that there are two things a manager must do to be successful; first is to communicate with their team what is expected of them and how that expectation will be measured, and second is to listen to what their employees say to them.

Sounds kind of simple but it's actually kind of hard to get right.

Performance management is drilling down into understanding what is going on with the person who is failing to meet their expectations.

If you both understand the metric for measurement, whether it is lines of code or time to delivery or what ever you have worked out with the employee ahead of time, both of you have to look at the metric, and the action to date, and get to a common understanding of what is going "wrong."

The most common problem I have dealt with are people who claim to be "senior" from a large company but don't really have any idea what that means other than "time spent in the role." I have pretty qualitative definitions of "entry level", "experienced", and "senior" that I work from and right away I try to communicate that to an employee. Sometimes they get hired into a role that is "above" them and they are unable to rise to the challenge, sometimes its just a different work flow than they have been used to.

The second most common problem is ego. An engineer who defines themselves by how good of an engineer they are, has a really really hard time looking critically at their own weaknesses. That conversation usually has a lot of "this doesn't mean you are a bad engineer, it means we have to work out how you can be even better than you currently are." type discussions.

The third one that comes up are people who are doing the job because someone else (spouse, parent, peer) thinks "it's a good job, you should be a ..." rather than the job they really want to do. As a result they put in only enough effort to not get fired and not much more. I'm okay with that if they don't mind being paid at the entry level wage level. If they are in the mindset that "I've got five years of experience and says I should be making $Y at this point." Then we have the conversation about "careers" versus "jobs". There are plenty of people who just want a paycheck and will do the minimum for it. They do fine work and clock in the hours, but they don't add value to the team like someone who wants to be good at what they are doing.

Too many engineering managers try to treat engineers as cogs with the only power of "do it or I will fire you" to motivate them. From my limited experience with this type of management it only works so much, and it doesn't build teams, or good product in the long term.

Re: Ask HN: What does performance management look like at your company?

#110
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop your manager in their tracks next 1:1 and state you have some feedback about how you're feeling here. Start by noting that it's a very stressful time right now and that these concerns are even more important for you. Your manager would likely be hurt if you left and good managers appreciate upwards feedback so that they can correct on their side. The fact that the performance rating is good means your manager pr…

> Stop your manager in their tracks next 1:1 BAD idea with most managers. Your manager is likely to be vindictive and insecure if confronted like that. Even with peer reviews in place managers have disproportionate influence on your reviews, and promo/comp decisions (something you readily acknowledge). If the manager treats you with disdain, it's almost impossible to fully reverse that - it's just human nature, let a…

Yes. Suck up to the boss, then say you're interested in a new opportunity at Team X, or, sadly, you've accepted an offer to work somewhere else, or, you are quitting for personal reasons.
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