Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#101

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 12, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

gmtx725 wrote: post #78

TeMPOraL wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to compare the cost of potential information bottlenecks with the cost of no deeper work being done at all. To combat the bottlenecks, just include shared spaces - a kitchen with a water cooler, a foosball table, a customary time where people go to lunch as a group. Serendipity will happen there, and workstations can be reclaimed as places for concentration.

Maybe, i'm not convinced. In my experience social interactions in shared spaces like kitchens etc tend to be dominated by general niceties and non-work chat. Which is fine, obviously, but I don't think you get the benefits as when people working on similar stuff are physically proximate to one another in their workspace, and can get feedback on an idea they are working on now instantly from knowledgeable coworkers

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#102

Post by gmtx725 » Tue, May 12, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #97

gmtx725 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, i'm not convinced. In my experience social interactions in shared spaces like kitchens etc tend to be dominated by general niceties and non-work chat. Which is fine, obviously, but I don't think you get the benefits as when people working on similar stuff are physically proximate to one another in their workspace, and can get feedback on an idea they are working on now instantly from knowledgeable coworkers

> people working on similar stuff are physically proximate to one another in their workspace, and can get feedback on an idea they are working on now instantly from knowledgeable coworkers Yeah, but the issue people arguing against open-space have, myself included, is that we explicitly don't want to have these interactions, at least not in unstructured form - because your request for feedback from me " now instantly…

It's just that, a request. You are not obliged to help people straight away if you are deeply engaged in something. In fact most people are polite enough to not ask if it's clear you are busy. But if you're not, having access to that immediacy is a real boon IMO.

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#103

Post by joe202 » Tue, May 12, 2020, 1:09 PM UTC

The most objectionable part for me is noise level, followed by the fact that my seat faces the big windows, which are frequently too bright. They are also often too warm for my comfort, though too cold for others. I don't want to listen to music or have hot ears from headphones. I started working life in open plan but quieter than nowadays but best was working in a 4 person office. I'm currently happier working in my study at home.

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#104

Post by Jemm » Tue, May 12, 2020, 1:13 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #96

twic wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd like team size cubicles. Upvoting and quoting to emphasise this point. The alternative to open plan is not individual offices, it's team offices.

So... regular offices? Because that's how most office building have been organized outside of tech for decades.

In one job we had large rooms where each team was housed. There were no closable doors so it felt open but gave us quiet so we could concentrate.

That doorway was a psychological deterrent to people coming to socialize or ask stupid questions. It made them stop no briefly.

The people who needed privacy due to sensitive nature of their work, like HR and legal, got offices with doors. I hear from people at other companies that this is not always the case.

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#105

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, May 12, 2020, 1:16 PM UTC

gmtx725 wrote: post #102

TeMPOraL wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people working on similar stuff are physically proximate to one another in their workspace, and can get feedback on an idea they are working on now instantly from knowledgeable coworkers Yeah, but the issue people arguing against open-space have, myself included, is that we explicitly don't want to have these interactions, at least not in unstructured form - because your request for feedback from me " now instantly…

It's just that, a request. You are not obliged to help people straight away if you are deeply engaged in something. In fact most people are polite enough to not ask if it's clear you are busy. But if you're not, having access to that immediacy is a real boon IMO.

It's a request, but just issuing a request to a developer in a state of deep focus stands a good chance of kicking them out of that focused state, ruining anywhere between half an hour and the rest of the day for them. So you need to be really mindful of the cost of just asking someone if they have time.

The usual solutions I've employed or been subjected to in the past are: 1) headphones on == no interruptions of any kind, 2) direct questions and requests to IM (with notifications off), and 3) if you need someone's repeated help during the day, then note your questions on a list, and agree on a period (e.g. every hour on the clock) when you and that someone will go over the list together. In my experience, 3) is magical, because once you start noting questions down instead of asking for help immediately, you'll discover that before the hour is up, you'll have answered most of your questions yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#106

Post by snazz » Tue, May 12, 2020, 1:58 PM UTC

1_player wrote: post #100

dillonmckay wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In our elementary school cafeteria, we had a large traffic light that was sound activated. Reasonable noise levels were green, but if we got too loud it would turn yellow to warn us to quiet down, but if it turned red, it would make a loud buzzing alert, and we were not allowed to speak during the red light. If you did speak during a red light, you were written a ‘ticket’, and would not be going to recess that aftern…

That sounds incredibly dystopian. I hate it.

Does it? I much prefer an objective measure of volume instead of a school staff member just writing individual kids up for being subjectively too loud---the machine should have much less bias.

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#107

Post by gmtx725 » Tue, May 12, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #105

gmtx725 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just that, a request. You are not obliged to help people straight away if you are deeply engaged in something. In fact most people are polite enough to not ask if it's clear you are busy. But if you're not, having access to that immediacy is a real boon IMO.

It's a request, but just issuing a request to a developer in a state of deep focus stands a good chance of kicking them out of that focused state, ruining anywhere between half an hour and the rest of the day for them. So you need to be really mindful of the cost of just asking someone if they have time. The usual solutions I've employed or been subjected to in the past are: 1) headphones on == no interruptions of an…

I feel like you're being a bit precious. If someone asks you 'hey, can you help out with this', and you respond 'no not right now i'm busy', that knocks you out for half an hour to the rest of the day???

FWIW I'm a pretty independent worker and I agree people should try and work things out on their own before asking for help

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#108

Post by UncleSlacky » Tue, May 12, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

dillonmckay wrote: post #38

mFixman wrote: post #13

Working from home for the past 3 months taught me that a lot of my constant tiredness and apathy came from the constant noise you get in an open office. Some people can't handle being productive in a extremely loud, and extremely bright environment. It doesn't matter how much I destroyed my hearing by putting loud music over noise-cancelling headphones, I always felt tired after ~2 hours of work. Open offices seem to…

In our elementary school cafeteria, we had a large traffic light that was sound activated. Reasonable noise levels were green, but if we got too loud it would turn yellow to warn us to quiet down, but if it turned red, it would make a loud buzzing alert, and we were not allowed to speak during the red light. If you did speak during a red light, you were written a ‘ticket’, and would not be going to recess that aftern…

We had a traffic light system as well, but I think it was controlled manually by a staff member, and there wasn't any penalty when it was red. It didn't last long.

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#109

Post by randomchars » Tue, May 12, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

snazz wrote: post #106

1_player wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds incredibly dystopian. I hate it.

Does it? I much prefer an objective measure of volume instead of a school staff member just writing individual kids up for being subjectively too loud---the machine should have much less bias.

Why do they need to be quiet? This is in a cafeteria, not in a classroom.

Re: Ask HN: Why are you against open plan offices?

#110

Post by lukey_q » Tue, May 12, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

I'm a team lead and every single person on my team has told me they feel much more productive and able to focus since lockdown and 100% remote work started. One of the people on my team would normally work in our office's "chill room" because he found it slightly easier to focus in there compared to his actual desk.

In my opinion an open plan office for developers (or anyone, really) would ideally be an option, but you would have to opt-in. There are situations where being able to shout over your laptop at your coworkers is going to be beneficial, but there are also situations where people should be able to zone out and concentrate (zone in?) for several hours at a time without having to blast white noise in their headphones.