Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 124 posts

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#101

Post by leethargo »

helge5 wrote: post #77
throwaway9283i wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not want to save any money in taxes, health insurance, social insurance or pension fund. I am actually happy to pay all this. Nevertheless I heard horror stories even by doing so you are at risk they will f..k you anyway after a Prüfung (audit) within the first five years or so. I even want to stay in the public health insurance (freiwillig gesetzlich versichert). I actually do not want to benefit from being sel…

I can feel your pain, but that is really not what this is about. It is all about the rules/laws :-) Your's is an pretty edgy case. All people I know which have been employed dependently by a foreign company, have been employed by a local subsidiary (and I can understand that your foreign employer won't open one just for you). Just a wild guess: If you are above the minimum income for dependent-employees allowed to be…

Before I started my current job with a company in Thailand, I met with a tax accountant that specializes in international tax law. She looked up the German-Thai agreement and explained to me that I could be employed there regulary and pay taxes in Germany exclusively.

With that info, I traveled there for the onboarding (and getting a working visa), only to learn that the local tax authorities disagreed. My boss then suggested to just have me invoice him for the time being, until a subsidiary is created in the EU. Still waiting after two years :-\

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#102

Post by leethargo »

helge5 wrote: post #75
leethargo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the hint about Statusfeststellungsverfahren, I will research that. I had previously filled the questionaire from Finanzamt and they had accepted my status of "freiberuflich" w.r.t. software dev. The possibility to use private insurance depends on having some minimum amount of income. Also, I currently use the option to use public insurance (voluntarily) so that I can easily switch back to it once I become…

"Statusfeststellungsverfahren" is an (gov) insurance thing (the process is run by the "Rentenversicherung" (the pension fund)), it has (I think, not a lawyer) nothing to do with the Finanzamt (German IRS). That is an entirely different thing. > The possibility to use private insurance depends on having some minimum amount of income. This is incorrect. If you are self-employed you are off the state records. You can yo…

What you say about voluntary public insurance is true: I currently pay the full amount (both parts, for employer and employee).

It's based on an estimate for my yearly gross income based on last year's tax report. The insurance (TK) assured me that I would get refunded what I overpaid each year. This is relevant, since I work much reduced hours due to family obligations. But I still have to pay forward the higher estimates for tax and insurance now...

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#103

Post by leethargo »

helge5 wrote: post #83
throwaway9283i wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be wrong, but they only have to take one if you are below a certain age _and_ below the border income (Beitragsbemessungsgrenze). Always be careful w.r.t. these kinds of decisions because they could cost you an awful amount of money later.

If you are above the border income, the private version is less expensive (I might also be wrong, checkout https://www.finanztip.de/pkv/pkv-basistarif/ ). It only really affects people below that income (way too many!). It is the reverse, staying in the gov insurance costs you an awful lot of money upfront. It's the ethical but financially stupid thing.

True, the private insurance is typicall less expensive now (when I researched, it was 50%-60% of what I pay), but you have no guarantee that it will stay that way. They could just increase the fees for everybody, in the future, or just increase it with your age, as the health risks go up.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#104

Post by ohthehugemanate »

skrebbel wrote: post #39
ohthehugemanate wrote: post #7

I did this for a few years. Here are your options: Employment by the US company: They're allowed to employ you and have you "stationed" in Germany. You pay no US tax, and DE tax on 100% of this income. For Sozialversicherung, Rentenversicherung etc it's just as if you were selbständig. Since you're allowed to give up all sorts of rights in DE conteact Law, the US based contract is probably fine. Contractor for the US…

> since I dont have a degree in CS, I can't be selbständig in that field Wtf? Is there a rationale for this rule or is it just German's super weird "degrees are everything" culture turned to law? (I'm Dutch, were basically Germans who talk funny, but I'm very happy we don't have rules like these)

Just the super weird "degrees are everything" culture. The foundation is, as helge5 mentions, that there are certain qualified professions where the guild should ~~get paid~~ certify everyone who practices. The stupidity is that "programmer" was counted as an "engineer," at least in my case. I see helge5 thinks you are allowed to practice CS without a qualification - I can only tell you that the Finanzamt Köln/Bonn disagreed.

And as the other commenters noted, I _did_ say "selbständig" when I meant "freiberuflich". Can I get away with blaming autocorrect? :)

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#105

Post by ohthehugemanate »

helge5 wrote: post #26
ohthehugemanate wrote: post #7

I did this for a few years. Here are your options: Employment by the US company: They're allowed to employ you and have you "stationed" in Germany. You pay no US tax, and DE tax on 100% of this income. For Sozialversicherung, Rentenversicherung etc it's just as if you were selbständig. Since you're allowed to give up all sorts of rights in DE conteact Law, the US based contract is probably fine. Contractor for the US…

Just a small clarification: You are still "selbständig" (self-employed) if you do a "Gewerbe". The thing you don't get easily is a so called "Freiberuf", particularly if you don't have an engineering degree (though I managed to get it). Tax wise it is actually almost easier to do non-EU business than doing business in Europe, because there are no VAT issues involved (and there are no tariffs on those things). You jus…

thanks for catching my mistake! I'm blaming auto-correct. :)

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#106

Post by ohthehugemanate »

heipei wrote: post #27
ohthehugemanate wrote: post #7

I did this for a few years. Here are your options: Employment by the US company: They're allowed to employ you and have you "stationed" in Germany. You pay no US tax, and DE tax on 100% of this income. For Sozialversicherung, Rentenversicherung etc it's just as if you were selbständig. Since you're allowed to give up all sorts of rights in DE conteact Law, the US based contract is probably fine. Contractor for the US…

Employment by US company: Did that for five years working remotely from Germany for a US Incorporated. I'm German, had a German contract with all the standard provisions for Germany (mandatory vacation, termination protections etc, employer contributions to health-care etc). Worked without a hitch, like being employed by a DE entity. The only gotcha is that my monthly pay would have social contributions and health-ca…

Interesting that you got it working with a US employer. My US employer never could figure it out. All the advice they got from German business lawyers was that they had to establish a presence in Germany. :|

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#107

Post by ohthehugemanate »

Ded7xSEoPKYNsDd wrote: post #35
ohthehugemanate wrote: post #7

I did this for a few years. Here are your options: Employment by the US company: They're allowed to employ you and have you "stationed" in Germany. You pay no US tax, and DE tax on 100% of this income. For Sozialversicherung, Rentenversicherung etc it's just as if you were selbständig. Since you're allowed to give up all sorts of rights in DE conteact Law, the US based contract is probably fine. Contractor for the US…

My understanding is that in your 2nd scenario (contractor), the tax/social security authorities might at some point decide that this is Scheinselbständigkeit, and therefore it's actually been scenario 1 all along. What I'm unclear about is whether they'll try to collect from the worker in DE or the company in the US.

AFAIK Scheinselbständigkeit is a threat for the company, not the worker... and it's not a threat if the company is not based in DE.

But then, I always maintained one or two other contracts on the side. They made up less than 5% of my income, but their names were in my list of invoices. My tax advisor thought this was a good idea.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#108

Post by ohthehugemanate »

helge5 wrote: post #42
skrebbel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since I dont have a degree in CS, I can't be selbständig in that field Wtf? Is there a rationale for this rule or is it just German's super weird "degrees are everything" culture turned to law? (I'm Dutch, were basically Germans who talk funny, but I'm very happy we don't have rules like these)

Well, he mixed up "selbstständig" (self employed) and "Freiberuf" (a specific tax setup for specific kinds of occupations). Unlike in many other professions he _can_ be "selbstständig" in the CS field without a degree, and he can create a GmbH w/o any special qualification. Which is pretty unusual in Germany :-) It is very different in many other professions. So yes, you actually have to be an electrician with extra…

Thanks for catching my mistake - I did indeed mean Freiberuflich.

> Unlike in many other professions he _can_ be "selbstständig" in the CS field without a degree

I'm not an expert here, I can only tell you that the Finanzamt Köln disagrees with this sentence.

IIRC they lumped "web development" in under "engineering", and therefore required qualification. The only way around it that I've heard of, is some front-ender friends of mine invoicing as "Web Designer", which counts as an artistic profession.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#109

Post by romanovcode »

heipei wrote: post #27
ohthehugemanate wrote: post #7

I did this for a few years. Here are your options: Employment by the US company: They're allowed to employ you and have you "stationed" in Germany. You pay no US tax, and DE tax on 100% of this income. For Sozialversicherung, Rentenversicherung etc it's just as if you were selbständig. Since you're allowed to give up all sorts of rights in DE conteact Law, the US based contract is probably fine. Contractor for the US…

Employment by US company: Did that for five years working remotely from Germany for a US Incorporated. I'm German, had a German contract with all the standard provisions for Germany (mandatory vacation, termination protections etc, employer contributions to health-care etc). Worked without a hitch, like being employed by a DE entity. The only gotcha is that my monthly pay would have social contributions and health-ca…

> They're more than useless.

Can attest to that. Had similar situation - Being DE tax resident however working for my own company that is not based in DE.

I had just a simple question - when and how do I pay my taxes here from the money I bring from my company that is not German. And they could not help me because they really could not understand that someone might be living in Germany but not working in Germany.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#110

Post by romanovcode »

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #106
heipei wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employment by US company: Did that for five years working remotely from Germany for a US Incorporated. I'm German, had a German contract with all the standard provisions for Germany (mandatory vacation, termination protections etc, employer contributions to health-care etc). Worked without a hitch, like being employed by a DE entity. The only gotcha is that my monthly pay would have social contributions and health-ca…

Interesting that you got it working with a US employer. My US employer never could figure it out. All the advice they got from German business lawyers was that they had to establish a presence in Germany. :|

> German business lawyers

It's because most German beurocrats are garbage when it comes to laws related to outside Germany.

Post reply on HN