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Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

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Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#101

Post by balfirevic »

AchieveLife wrote: post #60
nikk1 wrote: post #4

Definitely read How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. However, just reading a book on this subject is not enough. You will actually have to apply the principles in your everyday life. Dealing with people is kind of like an art. And just like any art (like painting) you can only get better with deliberate practice. Doing this might feel a little uncomfortable at first, but it's how we grow as peopl…

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

> It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book

How do you know?

To clarify, you don't know how many people you interacted with that utilized those concepts but you haven't noticed at all.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#102

Post by hyperpape »

denimalpaca wrote: post #89
ThePadawan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often tried to find better methods of communicating with people, but I'm still struggling with one major problem: What do you do when someone literally does not react to anything you say in any way whatsoever? I could tell them "Yeah, X sounds like a great idea!" or "Please don't do that, I think X would be very harmful to the project", and their reaction would be the same "OK thanks, guess I'll go do X now". Th…

Ask someone to repeat back what you said so you know they actually understood what you were saying.

My opinion is that this will come across as domineering/micromanaging, even if you really do need to verify that someone understands things the same way you do.

There are ways to achieve the same effect without an equally bad appearance:

+ You can break the work into smaller chunks, to create more checkpoints

+ You can have a plan that is very specific about what is to be done that everyone agrees to in a written form (if you have a meeting, someone should take notes and have them circulated after the fact)

+ Most lightweight, you can not present the plan in one chunk, but talk it through, taking ample opportunity to reiterate and solicit agreement (if you do this right, the other person will repeat what you said, without you ever telling them to--everyone is happy)

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#103

Post by la6470 »

nostrebored wrote: post #81
_zskd wrote: post #72

I've responded to this sort if inquiry before, so forgive the copy-pasta: >> You sound like you have anxiety problems. What have you done to address your anti-social tendencies? Are you going to a therapist? Do you expect a fairy to fly into your house and magic them away? What job do you think exists where you don't need these skills? >> Having a therapist does not mean you are crazy, and you don't NEED to be crazy…

Can't upvote this enough. Treating your social aversion like an immutable feature is ridiculous. If we had a dev who's bad at coding but good at other tasks, what would we do, say that they're just innately untalented or that they need practice? The fact of the matter is that devs are allowed to be complacent about social behavior through most of the social groups we run in and through our work. We're seen as antisoc…

And we don’t need to. We should stand tall and be proud of who we are and show all the extroverts the middle finger. If someone wants to have a meaningful conversation I am all for it but I am not for mob mentality and trying to undermine someone just because they don’t like to interact. F off

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#105

Post by AchieveLife »

mdgrech23 wrote: post #77
AchieveLife wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

Can you give specific recommendations?

Yes! Thank you for asking :)

Starter Pack: Positive Psychology - Know your virtues - https://www.viacharacter.org/www/ - Know your strengths - https://www.gallupstrengthscenter.com/

Relationships - https://www.amazon.com/Relationship-Skills-Workbook-Do-Yours...

I recommend starting with these before diving into analytical psychology (they're more actionable than theoretical)

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#106

Post by naeemtee »

_zskd wrote: post #72

I've responded to this sort if inquiry before, so forgive the copy-pasta: >> You sound like you have anxiety problems. What have you done to address your anti-social tendencies? Are you going to a therapist? Do you expect a fairy to fly into your house and magic them away? What job do you think exists where you don't need these skills? >> Having a therapist does not mean you are crazy, and you don't NEED to be crazy…

> "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must-read

I'm sorry - this advice, and most of your comment, is bad advice.

I struggled with social anxiety for 10 or 15 years before I "cured" myself, and advice like this is what buried me. Reading books and going to a therapist can supplement your efforts, but if that's your main approach you're going to waste years - and when you talk, you're going to sound like a robot attempting to be human.

Which, believe me, is much worse than your (OP) presumably current state of looking like an awkward mute.

HTWFAIP is like the "cold showers" of social anxiety advice. I'm confident most people who recommend this book (which is literally everyone) haven't actually read it. It's popular advice because it's popular advice, not because it's actually useful.

Dale Carnegie's books were meant for everyday corporate workers to advance their workplace and sales communication skills - not for socially awkward developers who lack base social cues. Not only that, it was in a time with completely different social nuances - unless you really want to be an idiot carrying around a notebook of everyone's birthdays and asking questions 80% of the time your mouth opens.

Social anxiety isn't cured by reading books on emotional intelligence and deep diving into the way you say things. Most self-professed "introverts", particularly developers, spent most of their lives playing video games and sitting indoors. They're not well-rounded people in the least.

When you start slowly morphing your life to be more well rounded - taking part in group activities, getting hobbies, physical activity, etc. the social stuff takes care of itself. Your goal shouldn't be to excel at small talk - your goal should be to get to the point where your life is so cool you don't give a crap how you interact socially.

Burying your head in books and overanalyzing your social interactions isn't going to solve your social anxiety. Go play soccer.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#107

Post by mindcrash »

Been there, done that.

This is not something you can solve and/or fix with a book.

Find a good job coach, whom you trust (VERY IMPORTANT), to talk to and practice with and then practice, practice, practice in, well, practice.

Also don't expect to "magically" get a lot better at this stuff. It will take a while. And with "a while" I mean months, not days.

But you really should start with finding a good job coach who you can trust.

Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#108

Post by copperx »

josephmosby wrote: post #28

Two books that really helped me were Nonviolent Communication (Marshall Rosenberg) and Radical Acceptance (Tara Brach). The specific techniques outlined in the books were helpful, but I benefited more from the mentality that you can communicate the same message in multiple tones and receive different results. Some of my colleagues have also done improv comedy courses and experienced the same outcomes. I also received…

> just assume that people mean nothing more or less than the literal words they said to you. Don't read more into it than they actually say.

One of the most brilliant professors I have met fiercely preached this belief, and I can see how it can help some interpersonal relationships. But he took it to an extreme. When somebody asked him whether he thought Trump was racist, he responded "well, has Trump said that he is a racist?". The idea is that whether a person lies or not is immaterial; you should take the persons words as the ultimate truth. He is the most well published professor in the entire university, and an internationally respected mathematician.

I tend to read everything "between the lines," and I think about my professor's words often, because I wonder whether this habit is affecting my relationships.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#109

Post by nikk1 »

AchieveLife wrote: post #60
nikk1 wrote: post #4

Definitely read How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. However, just reading a book on this subject is not enough. You will actually have to apply the principles in your everyday life. Dealing with people is kind of like an art. And just like any art (like painting) you can only get better with deliberate practice. Doing this might feel a little uncomfortable at first, but it's how we grow as peopl…

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

> It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection.

Then they're not taking to heart the book's principles. An common theme behind a lot of his advice is based in being honest, sincere, and genuine. If they're not being any of those things then they're not doing it right.

Re: Ask HN: Resources for introverted devs to learn workplace politics?

#110

Post by AchieveLife »

ThePadawan wrote: post #67
AchieveLife wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the book is over-hyped and not that helpful. It's incredibly easy to spot people who utilize concepts in that book and are not being genuine in their interaction. 'Masks' are a great way to prevent authentic connection. I've found better utility in a combination of books about positive psychology, emotions in relationships, and analytical psychology.

I've often tried to find better methods of communicating with people, but I'm still struggling with one major problem: What do you do when someone literally does not react to anything you say in any way whatsoever? I could tell them "Yeah, X sounds like a great idea!" or "Please don't do that, I think X would be very harmful to the project", and their reaction would be the same "OK thanks, guess I'll go do X now". Th…

What you are describing is difficulty with 'facilitating a decision' aka selling. I had to find a mentor to effectively learn that ability.

I'm more than happy to refer you to him. Just pm me

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