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Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

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101–110 of 148 posts

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#101
post #9

It is quite weird that we have all these up-votes (including my own) but no answers. I think that the real answer might be something quite embarrassing, and politically incorrect.

I think it has a lot of up votes from people who want remote jobs but can't find them. They want to see what people say here so that they can better form their objections/arguments for making a job remote.

...which is why I want to write this feature article. I'm sure the same people will read it! ::laughing::

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your team size?

20 people, but the processes we have in place should be scalable to way higher.

I am not doubting that, I was unsure if this would be too "formal" for a small team of 5 or less.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#103

Reasons against remote working: 1. Timezone issues - this is, imo, the biggest one. Especially after working with people in China, India, Europe or even eastern USA (with me in SF bay area). People all over the world usually start working around 9-10, and stop working around 6-7. Meetings, code/design discussions are very difficult on those schedules, especially when you want a decision on smaller issues where a quic…

1. is absolutely true. Real time communication has been crucial to my success as a remote developer. I'm in South America so it's easy for me to work at the same time as coworkers in the US. I worked for a some time for a British company and after a while I just decided to wake up 4 hours earlier so I could communicate with my coworkers.

2. and 3. shows your organization has communication problems. One of my favorite ways to combat that is to do some pair programming. You'll get to know people quite rapidly if you are talking to one each other 8 hours a day.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#104
post #36

Our management wants onsite for better control. I think it's all feelings based. We want to hire in Seattle. We had some remote not work out, therefore all remote is "bad". I think BS. We just got a new remote QA team and they are doing great. We have two remote devs also who are doing good work. I interpret the evidence to show that remote does work. I still get push back on it but the rationale is based on words li…

In what way did the remote employees not work out?

(I'm looking for examples to include, so details are helpful!)

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#105
post #96
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I was at the office for a decade, 90% of the insight and productivity came from informal conversations in the hallway, lunches and things I overheard in passing The issue is not remote working, the very thing you wrote is the issue. Virtually every time, remote working doesn't create new issues but reveals and - embarassingly - exposes existing ones. You can no longer take a chance by letting things such as hal…

Okay: So how would you advise someone to create that "real management for it"? Any references or suggestions you would recommend a well-meaning manager to gain the wisdom and skills necessary? (Because I also will be writing, separately, about how to do remote work well, and this is exactly the kind of info I want to impart.)

Two excellent sources are Moral Mazes [0] and Peopleware [1]. Moral Mazes is a principled and academic study of how managers believe ethics and morality work within systems of bureaucracy, and how this differs from the ethical expectations of subordinates and citizens who then have to develop their own rationalizations for how to fit into bureaucratic apparatuses, which they depend on for their livelihood, while compromising away what they believe to be basic and unalienable humanity-affirming principles in order to conform to business expectations. It uses qualitative data from a longitudinal survey in which the author gathered interviews from employees at all levels of corporate hierarchy over a period of years from several different (anonymized) companies in the 80s.

I really wish Moral Mazes was required reading in college. It would have helped me prepare for the shocking business world dysfunction that awaits virtually every employee, in every field, after graduation.

Peopleware is a classic within specifically software management, and deals with many of the same human-affirming principles that you see in Moral Mazes, but deals with them in formats that are specific to software. There are a lot of connections between the two books, but the connections haven't been well formalized as far as I know.

I love these two books because as you read them the slow feeling of horror comes over you as you see the true diff between how companies operate and how a company should operate if it is to maintain even the tiniest degree of humanity-affirming ethical commitment or even the tiniest degree of genuine concerns for (even from a market competition point of view) how productivity should be marshaled for general human progress.

I find there are more or less two types of reactions. Some people read them and go, "Yep. I've seen all that. No surprises here. Oh well, back to work." and just don't care because they just want to focus on local instrumentally rational actions even if it means participating in what is making the entire concept of employment so shitty. Some other people read them and find that it makes their soul glow again a little and they have a hard time ever fitting back into a company now that they have some formalized tools for recognizing how shittily they are being treated at all times.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Mazes

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopleware:_Productive_Project...

Also a good popular article drawing on Moral Mazes: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/the-banality... >.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#106
post #86

As someone who has worked 10+ years remotely (based in South America) I think it's a combination of factors: Supply and demand. Why hire remote when there's plenty of warm bodies locally? Most companies do not need, and cannot afford, top-tier talent. Labor shortages are a myth. Managerial incompetence. How many of the managers have any experience managing a remote team? Do they know what to do and what not to do? Re…

> Managerial incompetence. How many of the managers have any experience managing a remote team? Do they know what to do and what not to do?

What are the skills that someone needs to manage a remote team? How could someone measure whether he has them?

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#107

I am a remote worker and if I ever ran a company I wouldn't allow telecommuting. Here is why: When I was at the office for a decade, 90% of the insight and productivity came from informal conversations in the hallway, lunches and things I overheard in passing. As a remote worker, nearly all communication is very deliberate so I am not exposed to those ad-hoc conversations. Everything is very deliberate: I receive an…

Ditto. I'm a hiring manager and I have worked remotely for >10 years, managing large teams in offices around the world. It works great as long as the ICs and lower level managers are consolidated, but at a large, multinational corporation with complex bureaucracy & organization structures it is very hard for singleton ICs to be as effective remotely as they would in the office.

That said, I'm extremely flexible with informal WFH arrangements, as long as it doesn't impact individual productivity & team effectiveness.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#108
post #99
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that for real?

It was, at least. About 15 years ago I got a demo at a Gartner conference from a company doing just that. The vendor's primary goal, they said, was to measure where the developer was spending his time (coding vs debugger vs editor... I think it was a Visual Studio add-in?). But they admitted employers could use it to track what the developer was/wasn't doing. ...and that was before Facebook.

I see. But it was not necessarily just to target remote people. My wife had to use a time tracker like that a while ago, supposedly for the same reason: understand where people spend their time.

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#109

I live in a rural area in upstate NY. I can't relocate because I live close to my wife's family and she teaches kids to ride horses. A while back I was in a dead end job and working on a side project that was an image search engine that had nearly perfect relevance in a time when both Google Image Search and Bing Image Search were both embarrassingly bad -- at least at the time I started. It took about a year to get…

I want to hear the other story, too! :-)

Re: Ask HN: If you don't permit telecommuting, why?

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 people, but the processes we have in place should be scalable to way higher.

I am not doubting that, I was unsure if this would be too "formal" for a small team of 5 or less.

In that case, I would slowing introduce pieces of this, see how it works etc. If you feel like you need more process or more ways to build team camaraderie act accordingly.
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