Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

news.ycombinator.com

11–20 of 27 posts

Re: Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

#12
feature and time management.

When working for others and developing software. You have to nail/bolt and anchor the features down. No changes! Or sure, you can make changes but have to drop other features Or you get paid extra for new requests AND still have the schedule stretched.

Re: Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

#13

Have you been communicating with your client that the project scope exceeded your expectations? You'd be better off being honest earlier on rather than failing when they thought everything was going according to schedule.

I'd say this is the key to reducing stress. Just expectations that you can easily meet on your terms. If you can't meet them, don't take them on and find another client you can satisfy. There certainly are clients and projects out there who are willing to deal with longer turn arounds in exchange for a lower price. And everyone is happy.

No. Once you started trading longer turn arounds for a lower price, clients will use any further delay to lower the price further while it often actually should go up (if you count your hours, you're probably spending more to get those delays).

Re: Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

#14
Suppose I call a plumber over to fix my sink, and I say, "Hey, I've also started building a guest house out back--I'd like the interior plumbing run and the whole building connected to the city water. Can you get started on that, too?"

The plumber could say:

A) Let me schedule a time to come back and look at that and give you an estimate.

B) We just do repairs, not new construction. [Let me give you the card of my friend who does that kind of work.]

C) We're completely booked for new construction right now. I don't expect to have availability for that sort of thing until September.

What no plumber will ever say, though, is (D) "Uh, sure...I'll get started on that as soon as I finish this sink, and I guess the $150 for the sink should pretty much cover that."

If you said (D), what you are doing is simply a terrible idea that will not serve you or your client well. But you don't have to keep doing it! You just need to have a conversation where you say, "I gave you an estimate for X. We are now doing YZA. I apologize for not having this conversation earlier--when we switched from X to Y, or when we added Z. But now that we've also added A, I realize belatedly that we need to restructure this project."

Apologize politely and sincerely but not excessively for your actual mistakes--you didn't manage the project and client expectations well. Don't apologize for doing your job well, or for insisting--even belatedly--on the project conditions necessary to do your job well.

If you haven't said something ridiculous like (D), and your compensation and timeline (and compensation timeline) have adjusted appropriately with the project scope, then...well, you may have just bitten off more than you can chew on this project.

That's ok. It happens. Same kind of conversation: "This project has become too big for me to manage while moonlighting. Can we break the project into phases, or can I help you find someone able to complete a project of this size in a timely fashion?" The client may be disappointed. They may be angry. But the longer you try to be superman and just somehow get it all done because it HAS to be done, the worse the situation gets for you and them. And odds are the client will actually value clear communication and plausible plan-making, even belatedly.

Re: Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

#15

Suppose I call a plumber over to fix my sink, and I say, "Hey, I've also started building a guest house out back--I'd like the interior plumbing run and the whole building connected to the city water. Can you get started on that, too?" The plumber could say: A) Let me schedule a time to come back and look at that and give you an estimate. B) We just do repairs, not new construction. [Let me give you the card of my fr…

Agreed. If you are going to be a healthy (to yourself) consultant, you have to learn the art of saying no.

I used to be very paranoid about saying no. I actually recall the first time I did. I was running very low on sleep, and had been for some time. I needed a breather, but I just couldn't risk losing my reputation for always-being-there-and-always-getting-it-done.

After I (politely, but firmly) said no for the first time. It was a breath of fresh air. No one criticized me, or stopped hiring me. In fact, I think a few people close to me started working with me more, probably because I was getting more sleep.

So, don't be afraid to say no. It takes some practice, but you'll get used to it.

Re: Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

#16
post #15

Suppose I call a plumber over to fix my sink, and I say, "Hey, I've also started building a guest house out back--I'd like the interior plumbing run and the whole building connected to the city water. Can you get started on that, too?" The plumber could say: A) Let me schedule a time to come back and look at that and give you an estimate. B) We just do repairs, not new construction. [Let me give you the card of my fr…

Agreed. If you are going to be a healthy (to yourself) consultant, you have to learn the art of saying no. I used to be very paranoid about saying no. I actually recall the first time I did. I was running very low on sleep, and had been for some time. I needed a breather, but I just couldn't risk losing my reputation for always-being-there-and-always-getting-it-done. After I (politely, but firmly) said no for the fir…

Yeah, I agree with this too. Especially when first starting out, I think it's important to only allow two of the following (and ideally only one).

(a) Fixed Bid (b) Fixed Scope (c) Fixed Deadline

You're going to continue to find that clients almost never know the full scope they want upfront, and once you've got a contract in place they'll always try to get more done without paying more.

For me, the most stress-free way to do this is by doing it as an hourly rate, with a ceiling on the number of hours before you need to ask for authorization to do further work.

I know some people say to price on the value to the customer, and do fixed prices per week, and so on. I personally find this hard to do because it's so difficult to accurately gauge upfront how much work a project will be.

Usually I explain it to clients like this, depending on the situation:

- If we make the project fixed scope, we will have to deal with renegotiating everything if they find they want just a bit more. The overhead involved in $1k-5k projects is just not worth doing the project at all at that point. Plus they'll have to develop a very specific scope ahead of time, instead of just letting me start work that can cause delays of months.

- If the project is fixed bid, I'll have to make the price based on the worst case scenario rather than the median, and they'll almost certainly end up paying more than just paying me hourly.

Re: Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

#17
Bad projects, for however you choose to define "bad", are the price of experience as a consultant. There are bad projects in the sense that they go on longer than you expected and there are bad projects because you don't get paid, for however you choose to define "not getting paid." Short term advice:

1. If the scope is expanding and you're not getting paid, stop work.

2. If the scope is expanding and you're getting paid, attach a higher price to the additional work. That price should be high enough that it is worth your while to do it...though I'm not sure what the pissed off fiance market rate is these days.

3. If the client wants changes, then that obviously changes the schedule. You are not responsible for maintaining the same velocity beyond the time period associated with the initial project scope...your velocity can change. The client can then prioritize based on their new scope.

I had a very similar project. Client came back for phase two two years later after making a mess of a lot of relationships during phase one. I learned to put an expiration date on my rates after which if the project was not completed, I had the right to renegotiate my terms, and that most people recover from being let down when it comes to bargain priced services.

Good luck.

Re: Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

#18
I was in your exact situation. My day job at the time was very fulfilling. I only took the moonlighting gig for money. I hated it - it was a web design job and I'm a research/algorithms/systems person. I ended up spending way more than my billable hours procrastinating and stressing about the gig. My effective wage was shit. I didn't have free time to do stuff I enjoy.

I was young. I bailed hard and burned bridges. I could have handled it more professionally but I don't regret my choice. Business commitments and networking are not worth your sanity. If the gig is not essential to your career goals, you will never need the client's goodwill. Since you have a day job, you can omit it from your resume and nobody will ever know.

In the end, I probably spent all the extra money on drinks to ease stress and restaurant meals because I didn't have time to cook. Unless you need the moonlighting gig to survive, stick to your day job. Live frugally and try to build skills/experience that will help you earn more money in the future.

Re: Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

#19
post #10
post #6

I had a very similar experience when I moved to the bay area. Since money was tight I used "extra" work to earn money for 'fun' stuff. A simple weekend here, a few days there, kind of thing. And of course it got bigger and bigger as people asked for more and more stuff. And one day I realized the stress of not having anywhere in my life that was 'not work' was really getting to me. I wrapped up everything, handed the…

> And one day I realized the stress of not having anywhere in my life that was 'not work' was really getting to me. Same story for me. The extra money was for toys or some start-up down the road. Went home for the Christmas holiday one year, relaxed for the first time in a while and realized I wasn't enjoying the work anymore. After that I had a chat with the start-up I was helping out and eased out of the project. T…

> Now I spend more time on side projects and lately my own start-up. Learned alot in the process and wouldn't trade it.

This comment really resonates with me as I think this is going to be a crucial learning point for me down the road.

Re: Ask HN: Getting stressed out moonlighting

#20
post #18

I was in your exact situation. My day job at the time was very fulfilling. I only took the moonlighting gig for money. I hated it - it was a web design job and I'm a research/algorithms/systems person. I ended up spending way more than my billable hours procrastinating and stressing about the gig. My effective wage was shit. I didn't have free time to do stuff I enjoy. I was young. I bailed hard and burned bridges. I…

Were you ever worried about your reputation?
Post reply on HN