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Ask HN: Was everyone's first web development experience extremely difficult?

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Re: Ask HN: Was everyone's first web development experience extremely difficult?

#11
post #6

I was in your boat. I studied mechatronic engineering in school. Going from command-line,fizz-buzz-style programming to web development is a huge undertaking, not least because there are so so many concepts in web dev that you probably weren't exposed to. If you were like me, you probably didn't have software engineering experience - I'm going to guess that you aren't using version control. (No offence intended - I'm…

You raise a good point, but why would it necessary to understand how the web works, but not necessary to understand what happens when you make a database request? Or how ORM works? Or how to loop through an array? All these things are equally important, I think. I agree with your point that if you want to get any webapp out the quickest way possible, you can use a framework. But if you want to get into web developmen…

Database requests, ORMs and for loops technically are part of "things which happen between the url and the view" ;). More to the point, they certainly are all equally important, but web requests was slightly more difficult because that wasn't covered in the engineering course.

Whether a top-down approach is better than a bottom-up approach to learning, that's debatable, I'd grant you that. My experience tells me that going top-down is better, because practical high-level skills are more useful than theoretical low-level knowledge. It's the same way knowing how to drive a car is more useful than knowing how an engine works. If the OP decides halfway that web development is not for him, at least he'll still know enough to be able to build a functional webapp, which can be a boon to whatever profession he chooses next.

Re: Ask HN: Was everyone's first web development experience extremely difficult?

#12
In short: yes.

I actually disagree with the idea that it's easier or better to start simple. As I've gotten more experience, I like simple frameworks better, but as someone starting out, I had no idea what to do with them. You don't know what you don't know.

Here's what I suggest: find a tutorial that walks you through every single step and lets you build a complete, fully-functional web app. You're not going to understand what you're doing or why, and most of what happens is going to look like magic. This is ok. After that, start to customize your application. This is the part where you really start to understand how it all works. You'll fumble around and get error after error. But after having gone through your tutorial (and type it all out by hand, because you'll inevitably make typos and this is good because you'll start to understand what different errors mean), you'll have an idea of how to find the answers. Almost everything you encounter at this point will be answered on Stack Overflow, and if it isn't, that's a pretty big hint that your problem is a weird typo.

I like to think of it this way: think about how people learn new languages (not of the programming kind). Maybe people will tell you to buy a dictionary and grammar book and "start with the basics", but that's not going to get you fluent and frankly, won't be much help at all unless you've already got some real experience. The best way to become fluent in a new language is total immersion.

Yeah, it's nice to sit here and say you should learn everything about how HTTP works and what happens when you type an address. But you're going to find this out for yourself when you take control of routing in your application. If you sit here without any context and read about GET vs. POST, that knowledge doesn't have anything to stick to.

I don't know much about the Python world, but I guarantee there are tutorials out there that walk you through a complete web application from the ground up. Django seems pretty popular, so you might have some success finding tutorials there.

Re: Ask HN: Was everyone's first web development experience extremely difficult?

#13
post #6

I was in your boat. I studied mechatronic engineering in school. Going from command-line,fizz-buzz-style programming to web development is a huge undertaking, not least because there are so so many concepts in web dev that you probably weren't exposed to. If you were like me, you probably didn't have software engineering experience - I'm going to guess that you aren't using version control. (No offence intended - I'm…

You raise a good point, but why would it necessary to understand how the web works, but not necessary to understand what happens when you make a database request? Or how ORM works? Or how to loop through an array? All these things are equally important, I think. I agree with your point that if you want to get any webapp out the quickest way possible, you can use a framework. But if you want to get into web developmen…

> b) I learn Chinese from the ground up. It won't be pretty for a long time to come, but at the end of the road I know exactly what I'm saying

That's not really how people learn languages -- not to become fluent, anyway. Think about how children learn to speak. They copy adults, get feedback, and eventually put it all together without understanding why it works until later.

Re: Ask HN: Was everyone's first web development experience extremely difficult?

#14
sounds very familiar! I used to work as a quantitative analyst at an IB and was quite familiar with programming. Turned out that coding algorithms is one thing, coding up a webapp with loads of different moving parts is quite another story. But by the sounds of it, you're on the right track, keep it up!

Re: Ask HN: Was everyone's first web development experience extremely difficult?

#15
post #10
post #2

In my experience, Ruby on Rails is the fastest and most efficient and intuitive way to develop web applications. Give it a try!

For sure... Buy the Learn Web Development with Ruby on Rails by Michael Hartl( http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ruby-on-rails-tutorial-book ) It makes everything make sense. :-)

and/or subscribe to "codeschool.com" and go through their ruby path. That's how I personally learned Rails! :)

Re: Ask HN: Was everyone's first web development experience extremely difficult?

#16
Web development is heard, there are many skills you need to get a handle of, minimally: HTML, a programming/scripting language, a database and the file system of the webserver.

Each one you have to not only research but do a bunch of hand-on work to fine tune and to make them work together. Then once you get some progress, you throw into the mix improving user experience... heh.

Starting with the 8-bits we had a finite universe, the computer. Add into it a new disk drive or some new coding hack now and again. On the internet you can have too many options and choices, and you are lost in choosing and learning tools than working on problems.

Re: Ask HN: Was everyone's first web development experience extremely difficult?

#17
Seems silly to pick an dev environment when you haven't built a proof of concept. Build that in the something to can rapid prototype and then refine the process. Software construction is about refining the application into something useful... Code purists will tell you some BS about this framework or that one, but all the crap that is out there today will be gone in 3 years and something else will be en vogue. Get the app up, test the crap out of it and then see if anyone wants to use it... if so, tear it apart and rebuild it... eBay was built on isapi.dll calls and that was a POS and it ran like that for 15 years... Build, test, refine... That's what a coder does. Build
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