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Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

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Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#11

Post by davidw »

gabrielroth wrote: post #9
trapper wrote: post #7

It is very hard. A few warning signs I have noticed over the years: - Superficial knowledge, but claim they know the field. When you dig deeper you find knowledge lacking. Wikipedia can help uncover this sometimes, amazingly. - Do not read new business books. - Haven't heard of "classic" books in the business world, e.g. good to great, crossing the chasm etc - Business model based on a poor understanding of technolog…

Is reading new business books really a necessity? The few that I've read seem pretty vapid. I'm sure there's some useful advice in some of them, but surely an experienced businessperson would already have the basic knowledge and abilities down. If a top business guy in a startup spent a meaningful amount of time reading new business books, I'd be a bit suspicious. Your other 'warning signs' seem right on to me.

Most of them are very fluffy. Even the good ones, with a unique idea (say, Innovator's Dilemma) have to pad the good stuff to make a book out of it. And hence, a side project of mine, Squeezed Books.

Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#12

Post by trapper »

gabrielroth wrote: post #9
trapper wrote: post #7

It is very hard. A few warning signs I have noticed over the years: - Superficial knowledge, but claim they know the field. When you dig deeper you find knowledge lacking. Wikipedia can help uncover this sometimes, amazingly. - Do not read new business books. - Haven't heard of "classic" books in the business world, e.g. good to great, crossing the chasm etc - Business model based on a poor understanding of technolog…

Is reading new business books really a necessity? The few that I've read seem pretty vapid. I'm sure there's some useful advice in some of them, but surely an experienced businessperson would already have the basic knowledge and abilities down. If a top business guy in a startup spent a meaningful amount of time reading new business books, I'd be a bit suspicious. Your other 'warning signs' seem right on to me.

I would say yes. Thirst for knowledge is a common trait I have noticed amongst the repeatedly successful, and usually manifests itself by having read most of the literature on ones topic.

Perhaps you are overestimating how long it takes to read a business book. Most can be finished in a few hours due to their padding, and reading 10+ new books per year shouldn't be hard even for the uber-busy. It's not like reading a tome on prolog.

Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#13

Post by blender »

I would test them by suggesting some shiny objects and see if they go after them. i.e.

"Yes, Bob, we should do what you're suggesting but we should also do X, Y and Z."

If they don't say "No" or something to the effect of: "Those are good suggestions but I think we really need to focus on getting a prototype out the door, some real customer feedback, etc. Then we can revisit these great suggestions and see if they are still in alignment with the product."

Cheers

Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#14

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

Brushfire wrote: post #10
kaiserama wrote: post #4

I would say references are a good start. If they are respected by their peers and customers that's going to be a good sign. The other thing is obviously their track record. If they've done good things in the past like increase sales x% or launch new initiatives. But do your own research into these matters, your 'truth' means more than what a business person says. I've had similar concerns and got lucky meeting people…

With all due respect, references are worthless. The person wont give you references of people who wont give him glowing reviews. Perhaps past employers might work, but I think what you say about their track record is really the only way, outside of just knowing someone or a referral from someone you trust.

References are far from useless. It's like interviewing: if you let the candidate give you fluffy BS answers you'll get snowed every time.

Listen carefully and dig deep. Don't just settle for "I know this guy and he made me a bunch of money." Ask the reference what the guy did to make money, what was his plan, how they met, why he decided to work with him, why they aren't working together any more.

Imagine you're sitting down for lunch with the reference and having a conversation about the person he's referring and you'll do a better job of understanding what he's all about.

Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#15

Post by jlees »

Work with him for a trial period. Set a goal and see if he helps you achieve it or even exceed it.

You could also ask him to defend his management experience to you. Has he demonstrated results in a particular area before (winning new business for a similar product, for example)?

Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#16

Post by gabrielroth »

trapper wrote: post #12
gabrielroth wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is reading new business books really a necessity? The few that I've read seem pretty vapid. I'm sure there's some useful advice in some of them, but surely an experienced businessperson would already have the basic knowledge and abilities down. If a top business guy in a startup spent a meaningful amount of time reading new business books, I'd be a bit suspicious. Your other 'warning signs' seem right on to me.

I would say yes. Thirst for knowledge is a common trait I have noticed amongst the repeatedly successful, and usually manifests itself by having read most of the literature on ones topic. Perhaps you are overestimating how long it takes to read a business book. Most can be finished in a few hours due to their padding, and reading 10+ new books per year shouldn't be hard even for the uber-busy. It's not like reading a…

I totally agree re: thirst for knowledge. But I'd be more impressed by a business guy who read widely _outside_ his field.

Tangent: one way in which the internet and e-books will definitely affect book publishing, for the better, is that there will be less need to stretch a single idea to book length. Many nonfiction books should really be ~30,000 words long, and once everyone has a Kindle there's no reason for them not to be.

Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#17

Post by apinstein »

It is very hard to figure out. I am IMHO a savvy business person and even I have a hard time figuring it out. Ultimately it takes time and getting to know the person.

The only advice I can give to accelerate this process is to ask lots of questions. If he has an answer for everything, that's actually a bad sign as it typically means he's BS'ing.

You want someone who's humble enough to admit where he isn't sure what will happen or how things work.

Absurd certainty and BS'ing is ok although not preferred for salespeople. But it's a sign of impending doom for a manager, especially for a startup.

Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#18

Post by blurry »

From my (extensive) experience, there is no way to know in advance. The only way to guard against surprises is to tie ownership to execution.

Set specific performance goals for both yourself (modules released, SEO rankings, whatever's relevant) and "the suit" (capital in the bank, number of users, number of paid subscriptions, etc). Tie each goal to percentage ownership. If goals are met, you vest. If goals are not met, you find another partner or scrap the project altogether.

Also make sure that the goals are on a somewhat concurrent timeline. "Suits" generally have trouble executing on a "beta" product so if you do not set concurrent goals, you will keep developing new features and never, ever have the chance to see your partner in action.

What I mean is, push really hard for a bare-bone set of requirements that you both agree to be "good enough" as the first iteration of your product, and as soon as that feature set is in place, your partner needs to execute (again, whatever's relevant to you - sell some subscriptions, get some marquee clients on board, raise capital, etc).

Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#19

Post by apinstein »

hendrixski wrote: post #5

Start working with them. It becomes immediately apparent. I'm on my second startup, we just raised funds and brought on a VP of marketing, and we did it by telling one guy "congrats you're on the team" and a week later realized that he wasn't the right fit, so told him "goodbye" and then we told another guy "congrats you're in the team" and after a week we all agreed he is totally awesome, and he's still the guy, and…

This is great advice. Also, by all means, never sign a big contract up front (no matter which side you're on). Just have him pay you cash for a week or two, that should be all the time you need to make a judgement.

Re: Ask HN: How can I tell if I'm working with a savvy business person?

#20

Post by FictiveCameron »

Im a "business guy" out of Stanford GSB and if I was going to look for a hacker, I would expect to see a list of things that s/he had done. The more impressive that list the more likely I would be to work with that person.

Seems to me you should simply take the flip side. For me, savvy isn't the right word. There is something very self-interested about it. Instead, I would look for a business person who has actually helped build something. Preferably something very interesting.

Also, while im not big on references, it might be nice to talk to another hacker, whose work you respect, who had a positive experience working with that business person.

Lastly, I would definitely not judge a business person by which business books he has read. Business people should help you build something of value, not regurgitate the most recent tagline of a management fad.

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