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Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?

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Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?

#11

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jfyi wrote: post #5

I am opposed to borders on a fundamental, ideological level. They are an expression of state violence prohibiting natural freedom of movement and trade. I don't believe that is actually a commonly held capital "L" Libertarian belief though, and certainly would not associate myself with that party.

Does Ukraine/Russia change your view at all? Russia would sure like freedom of movement and trade there.

But forget the military/self defense issues. Consider the word "jurisdiction". It literally means getting to say what the law is. Well, if you have a place where US law is in force, and another place where Chinese law is in force, you have to have a border, a place where the law switches from one to the other.

Or do you believe that there should be one universal law for the whole world? If so, whose?

Or do you believe that law enforcement is also state violence? Do you believe that the absence of any law would be less violent? And if so, what is your basis for believing that?

Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?

#12

Post by astro1234 »

Immigration having downward pressure on salaries is a common and demonstrably false misconception. Immigration adds more members to the labor pool while also increasing demand. The two, in most major studies, cancel each other out.

"Immigrant ethnic cronyism" -- would you care to explain a bit more?

Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?

#14

Post by jfyi »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #11
jfyi wrote: post #5

I am opposed to borders on a fundamental, ideological level. They are an expression of state violence prohibiting natural freedom of movement and trade. I don't believe that is actually a commonly held capital "L" Libertarian belief though, and certainly would not associate myself with that party.

Does Ukraine/Russia change your view at all? Russia would sure like freedom of movement and trade there. But forget the military/self defense issues. Consider the word "jurisdiction". It literally means getting to say what the law is. Well, if you have a place where US law is in force, and another place where Chinese law is in force, you have to have a border, a place where the law switches from one to the other. Or…

I'm not sure you can use state violence as a counter to a complaint about state violence.

If your point is that we don't have easy solutions, yes I agree.

I'd also point out that the distinction I am making is state vs personal not violence vs non violence.

Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?

#15

Post by TorontoTheGood »

victorbjorklund wrote: post #7

You might as well ask why US tech workers are in favour of computer science education when it clearly does not benefit them that new people learn to code etc.

That’s a whataboutism. The original question is why many US tech workers support open borders for tech labor when the supply increase primarily hits the wages and bargaining power of workers already here.

Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?

#16

Post by Snoozus »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #11
jfyi wrote: post #5

I am opposed to borders on a fundamental, ideological level. They are an expression of state violence prohibiting natural freedom of movement and trade. I don't believe that is actually a commonly held capital "L" Libertarian belief though, and certainly would not associate myself with that party.

Does Ukraine/Russia change your view at all? Russia would sure like freedom of movement and trade there. But forget the military/self defense issues. Consider the word "jurisdiction". It literally means getting to say what the law is. Well, if you have a place where US law is in force, and another place where Chinese law is in force, you have to have a border, a place where the law switches from one to the other. Or…

There could be a border, where the law and currency change. But people could still be free to cross that border.

I don't know what you mean with the russia/Ukraine thing, bringing a tank over the border would obviously be illegal in either legal system.

Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?

#17

Post by leros »

astro1234 wrote: post #12

Immigration having downward pressure on salaries is a common and demonstrably false misconception. Immigration adds more members to the labor pool while also increasing demand . The two, in most major studies, cancel each other out. "Immigrant ethnic cronyism" -- would you care to explain a bit more?

I'm worried about off shoring. In the past few years I've consulted or been asked to consult at companies who are either off shoring or have offshored most of their engineering team to places like Ukraine. From what I've seen it's been successful. The engineers there are much cheaper, are just as competent, and work much harder, plus their communication in English is great.

Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?

#18

Post by astro1234 »

leros wrote: post #17
astro1234 wrote: post #12

Immigration having downward pressure on salaries is a common and demonstrably false misconception. Immigration adds more members to the labor pool while also increasing demand . The two, in most major studies, cancel each other out. "Immigrant ethnic cronyism" -- would you care to explain a bit more?

I'm worried about off shoring. In the past few years I've consulted or been asked to consult at companies who are either off shoring or have offshored most of their engineering team to places like Ukraine. From what I've seen it's been successful. The engineers there are much cheaper, are just as competent, and work much harder, plus their communication in English is great.

I don't have personal experience with this -- but if I were in the situation where my job was jeopardized by better price efficiencies, I don't know that I personally would have a problem with that. If Ukrainians can do my job just as well or better than I can and they can do it cheaper, I would be worried if my company didn't take advantage of that.

That's my own personal opinion. I can understand how e.g. local and/or temporary changes to wages would be far more concerning and devastating to jobs that are lower paying, but since the question is on tech jobs which are typically much higher paying, I think it's fair game for companies to make strategic decisions in the company's best interest (as long as it doesn't run afoul of laws or human rights). I would be happy for the folks that were able to participate in an economy.

To me it would be unethical to create artificial barriers to lock humans out of opportunities just so I could keep an effectively inflated salary (since this assumes that the true value of the labor is actually lower than what I'm being paid).

Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?

#20

Post by brodouevencode »

cruano wrote: post #19

Because it is the reason the US is a tech hub in the first place ? No immigration means no concentration of talent, which means companies would just move to a country that allows that (e.g. Ireland) and they'll take their high-paying jobs with them.

This implies the immigration came before the technology, which is not what happened.
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