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Ask HN: MIT grad, junior dev layoffs – watching my daughter lose faith in merit

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Re: Ask HN: MIT grad, junior dev layoffs – watching my daughter lose faith in merit

#11

Post by [deleted] »

sheepscreek wrote: post #6
toomuchtodo wrote: post #3

She’s not wrong, in ~25 years in tech, I’ve seen merit as a component of success a minority of the time. It’s who you know, who likes you (direct manager and those around you who influence your comp and longevity), right place at the right time, etc. We win or we learn (in this case, “the meritocracy is an illusion” is the lesson). She should (imho) get back on the horse knowing how the game is played and play to win…

> I’ve seen merit as a component of success a minority of the time Small but an absolutely necessary correction. “Merit” or being at the top of the academic ladder absolutely does open doors for you that are closed to others. But that’s all it does and everything you’ve said is applicable from that point on. Put in other words, merit can help you get a job at Google, McKinsey, Jane Street, CERN or what have you - but…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: MIT grad, junior dev layoffs – watching my daughter lose faith in merit

#12

Post by whast_in_a_name »

It happens to everyone

people get laid off, let go etc

the trick is to bounce back

maybe go for Masters? Phd at MIT?

maybe she can apply to an adjacent job, in qa, product management etc

maybe apply to a job she is over-qualified,

maybe take 1/2 a loaf

when I graduated it was a bad recession, all my friends were not getting jobs,

I stayed in school as long as I could,

then I got first job of testing some phone games with high school dropouts at min wage....I was the one with a grad degree in engineering

I kept applying and I got a job that I was happy

and I didnt have my family, parents, friends etc to cheer me on or I sure was not an MIT smart

Re: Ask HN: MIT grad, junior dev layoffs – watching my daughter lose faith in merit

#13

Post by xhkkffbf »

The worst problem for all of us humans is that we go "all in" on the company that hires us. If the company suffers a big loss in another division, we can lose salary, raises or our jobs, all through no fault of our own. Yes, it sometimes works in the other direction. A big profit in one division can be reinvested in ours. But much of our fate depends upon the larger company.

So you can't say this is about merit when so much of the equation depends upon others who many have nothing to do with your daughter.

Re: Ask HN: MIT grad, junior dev layoffs – watching my daughter lose faith in merit

#14

Post by catlover76 »

BadCookie wrote: post #9

I think it is a mistake not to celebrate the holidays. You don’t have to pretend that everything is okay in order to celebrate each other. I am similar to your daughter in some ways but much older. Lately, I have felt that I have reached a dead-end in my career (though I am still employed). I have a few thoughts that might be useful. One is the concept of ikigai: finding the intersection of what you enjoy, what you a…

[dead]

Re: Ask HN: MIT grad, junior dev layoffs – watching my daughter lose faith in merit

#15

Post by billy99k »

"My daughter followed the playbook everyone here recommends. MIT. Programming olympiads. Strong internships. No shortcuts."

I never had any of this and I managed to find work in tech in 2000, 2008, and even now (during the worst down markets in my lifetime), when everyone says that 'nobody is hiring', I had 5 interviews (I only applied to 10 or so jobs) and an offer in less than a month.

Education has never guaranteed you a job. The key is to be able to stay positive, even with rejections. I've never had the luxury of having an internship or network at a well-known university.

Getting a job is all about getting yourself in reduced in a smaller pool of candidates that the company will choose from. Education, experience, being personable can all do this.

The economy is rough right now. You also have do things that can set yourself apart from the rest. I got my latest offer by calling the person that posted the job directly and had a second interview by the end of the week.

"She spends most days in her room applying, "

Mass applying will almost never get you the job. She should be focused on customizing her resume and trying to get in touch with the person posting the job and getting face time.

"It’s Christmas and we aren’t celebrating. No decorations. No pretending things are okay. I’m completely shattered as a parent, mostly because I don’t have answers. I told her for years that merit would protect her. It didn’t."

This is an odd response from a parent. Why are you wallowing in her sorrow? You should be showing her that life can still be good and she will eventually find work again.

Re: Ask HN: MIT grad, junior dev layoffs – watching my daughter lose faith in merit

#16

Post by add-sub-mul-div »

Merit is one of those things that helps in the long run but can't be guaranteed to help at any one specific time. So you need to trust it even when it seems unhelpful.

But on the other hand, software dev seems to be racing in the direction of replacing developers with fungible AI operators. It's too soon to tell how it will end, but whatever labor can replaced or reduced will be. A long-standing equilibrium of labor is gone.

Re: Ask HN: MIT grad, junior dev layoffs – watching my daughter lose faith in merit

#17

Post by toomuchtodo »

sheepscreek wrote: post #6
toomuchtodo wrote: post #3

She’s not wrong, in ~25 years in tech, I’ve seen merit as a component of success a minority of the time. It’s who you know, who likes you (direct manager and those around you who influence your comp and longevity), right place at the right time, etc. We win or we learn (in this case, “the meritocracy is an illusion” is the lesson). She should (imho) get back on the horse knowing how the game is played and play to win…

> I’ve seen merit as a component of success a minority of the time Small but an absolutely necessary correction. “Merit” or being at the top of the academic ladder absolutely does open doors for you that are closed to others. But that’s all it does and everything you’ve said is applicable from that point on. Put in other words, merit can help you get a job at Google, McKinsey, Jane Street, CERN or what have you - but…

Great comment, appreciate the correction.

Re: Ask HN: MIT grad, junior dev layoffs – watching my daughter lose faith in merit

#20

Post by dimrover »

What you should have been doing, instead of telling her the comforting lie that the world operates on merit and this is all that matters while nudging her towards tying all her feelings of self-worth to this, is helping her build resilience so that she doesn't end up wallowing in despair after a minor career setback.

That you've cancelled Christmas to collectively endure some sort of misery spiral instead obviously isn't going to help either. What on earth are you thinking?

She's learned this harsh life lesson that the world is unfair later rather than sooner, but she has a long life and career ahead of her. Not being able to get the type of job she wants, for a little while at least, isn't the end of the world.

For what it's worth, my company, a medium-sized business that operates in the cybersecurity space, is stil actively hiring junior staff. Many other companies we work with and compete with are too. Perhaps she needs to cast her net wider than wherever she's currently looking.

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