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Ask HN: Why is my F500 employer okay with paying 5x to freelancers?

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11–20 of 96 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why is my F500 employer okay with paying 5x to freelancers?

#11
I had the same conversation with a colleague who managed an engineering department, his answer was that he can take on new freelancers quickly and fire them just as quickly.

There are also patterns where freelancers are more desirable early on in an economic recovery, e.g. the company thinks it might be safe to start hiring again but is not feeling quite confident enough to take on full time staff (cost of firing etc.)

Re: Ask HN: Why is my F500 employer okay with paying 5x to freelancers?

#13
> I asked them: "why don't you simply see if you can ask your current staff to work 20 hours more for 75 euro's per hour on a freelance basis?"

Working 20 hours more for a lot more money? You're on the verge of inventing the U.S. labor market, think carefully about your next decision.

Re: Ask HN: Why is my F500 employer okay with paying 5x to freelancers?

#14

There’s a whole world of unintuitive reasons for this kind of thing. Non-exhaustive list: - Freelancers are OpEx, FTEs are CapEx. They are usually separate budgets so departments split. - They want to maintain good relationships with the freelance companies in case they need to spin up staffing quickly with top talent in the future. - They don’t have to pay some benefits and taxes on freelancers. - Freelancers and co…

That last is especially important.. it is option value. Same reason a one month lease costs more than a one year lease.

Re: Ask HN: Why is my F500 employer okay with paying 5x to freelancers?

#15
It is often some kind of cental control of headcount that causes some of this behaviour. Head Office obsess over keeping headcount low, and labour costs low, but think nothing about consultancy. The modern business world has a perverse view that labour is bad, yet consultancy improves efficiency

Re: Ask HN: Why is my F500 employer okay with paying 5x to freelancers?

#16
post #8

> I know that as an employee my 30 euro's is actually "more" due to vacation and pension, etc. but it's nowhere near 150 euro's How big is the difference? How much does it cost to fire you?

I have heard this so many times indeed, and as a contractor myself, it is so tiresome. Taxes, pensions, insurance, reservations for sitting without a contract, courses etc etc etc. Those "30 Euro p hour" People actually easily cost around 100 for the company at least, and that is without factoring in sick leave, severance pay etc.

Is there still a difference? yes, that is the risk contractors take. I agree that it can be weird for companies to have contractors in the same role for years on end, but I have also seen one or two contractors effectively doing 80% of all the relevant work in a 15 man team. Major incident? Contractors in the warroom. Coming up with a new architecture? Contractors. etc. etc.

Do not get me wrong I have also seen it the other way around, that definitely happens, but I have also talked with tons of employees, and 9 out of 10, when pressed, do not become a contractor. They value the "stability" of the employment too much, or are simply too risk averse or afraid of running a small business by themselves. The ones that did make the jump are often very happy once they settle in and of course, financial security varies a ton between people. Parents, kids, nest egg, health, it all plays a role.

But employees complaining about contractors, and the difference between their salary and a contractors invoice... what is holding you back? I also find it funny that OP mentions he would like to freelance extra hours at his current employer. Just make those extra hours (or all your hours) somewhere else. You are not married to a company, especially not an F500 one. Those will lay you off without hesitance when deemed necessary, and typically find the limits of the law to do so.

Re: Ask HN: Why is my F500 employer okay with paying 5x to freelancers?

#17
post #7

There’s a whole world of unintuitive reasons for this kind of thing. Non-exhaustive list: - Freelancers are OpEx, FTEs are CapEx. They are usually separate budgets so departments split. - They want to maintain good relationships with the freelance companies in case they need to spin up staffing quickly with top talent in the future. - They don’t have to pay some benefits and taxes on freelancers. - Freelancers and co…

> Freelancers are OpEx, FTEs are CapEx I don’t think this is true unless simply make up your own definition of CapEx. “Examples of OpEx include employee salaries, rent, utilities, and property taxes.” https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/112814/whats-differ... (Yes there are some times when you may be able to capitalize some labor, but that would apply to freelancers as well and is very much the exception, not th…

This may be different per country and all sorts of fun things apply like “is this R&D” which definitely changes the calculus.

Re: Ask HN: Why is my F500 employer okay with paying 5x to freelancers?

#18
How did you calculate the 30 EUR per hour? Does this include paid holidays, sick leave, training, etc? Is it paid 12 times per year, or even 13, 14 or 15 times?

A freelancer can actually only work around 10 months per year. 1-2 weeks are national holidays, 4-6 weeks is holiday, 1-2 weeks sick leave.

Freelancers also only get paid when there is work to be done. There are gaps between projects that need to be included in the hourly rate. Training is done unpaid. Freelancers usually also provide some flexibility to the customer: the project is cancelled by the end of next week, the freelancer doesn't have to be paid anymore. Terminating a regular employee probably comes with a severance package of 2-6 monthly salaries, and maybe even a legal dispute.

Edit: Also hiring freelancers is much easier. Just hire them and fire them if they don't do their job as good as expected at any time. With employees it's more difficult to fire them if they don't perform as well as expected, but don't behave in bad faith.

Re: Ask HN: Why is my F500 employer okay with paying 5x to freelancers?

#19
I used to freelance full-time. Having freelancers on full-time indefinitely is usually just bad management, but the economics make a lot more sense for temporary and part-time work. If you only need someone for a few months of labor out of the year, then hiring them full-time is going to be way more expensive than contracting-even with a substantially higher hourly rate. Also, at least in the US, freelancers need to charge more to just break even with full-time employment rates due to taxation and benefits.
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