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Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

#12
One area where this already exists is private schooling.

In practice it leads to underfunding of public schools because the people with money are the people with political power. If their kids went to purely taxpayer-funded schools they would be higher quality and everyone would be getting a better education. (I know in the US things are a bit different, and there are are high quality public schools).

The argument then has two sides. One side is the freedom argument: parents should be able to do what they want within reasonable bounds. Seems valid and clear-cut. But then the other side points to the long-term consequences of having a bad education system. Lower economic growth, more populism if you have a stupid population with poor media literacy skills, and all the associated unpredictable unintended consequences that don't fit nicely into the whole "freedom" discussion. What was that freedom worth if I now have to live in a dictatorship because of all the accumulated unintended side effects that boiled over?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

#13
As someone who abhors subscriptions, I think it's a bad idea. This is why I love pay-as-you go electricity meters and pay-as-you-go phone plans, and sometimes lifetime purchases of software licenses. I also detest 'bills' which force you to cough up money and get disconnected from the service if you don't.

With pay-as-you-go if you don't have the funds, you simply bear with the circumstances until you can afford it. For example, if my electricity is cut, I am forced to use a duvet with two blankets on top to stay warm when if I had the funds, I don't need to, since the heat is paid for.

Same with Internet. I sometimes have no Internet for the day, but when funds arrive I can get back online. But those moments are teachable: I simply read a book, or clean the house when there's no Internet. Subscriptions are a marketer's dream. They want you hooked. Fuck that.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

#14

One area where this already exists is private schooling. In practice it leads to underfunding of public schools because the people with money are the people with political power. If their kids went to purely taxpayer-funded schools they would be higher quality and everyone would be getting a better education. (I know in the US things are a bit different, and there are are high quality public schools). The argument th…

"One area where this already exists is private schooling.

In practice it leads to underfunding of public schools because the people with money are the people with political power. If their kids went to purely taxpayer-funded schools they would be higher quality and everyone would be getting a better education. (I know in the US things are a bit different, and there are are high quality public schools)."

The threat of students leaving for private school and reducing funding for public schools (since their funding is based partly on enrollment) likely causes public schools to be better than if there were no alternative.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

#15
post #6

There are two things. One is that something things it doesn't make sense to have multiple companies offering multiple versions. Specifically, right in front of my house, there's no place for a dozen companies to put multiple roads for me to get to work on. it's a highly un-free market because of physical limitations. For those, a simplistic model makes sense. Everyone contributes to a pot which is used to pay for mai…

> If you don't have, and don't plan on ever having kids

Then you don't pay for their services, and other people pay more.

Most people don't want an uneducated population so they pay for them.

Government is this strange beast where we continuously seem to vote and pay for all these things we value at the ballot box, but then given the individual choice we change our mind. Or its a matter of "I won't if they don't". Which I guess creates the problem of excludability...if one group is paying for something that those who don't pay for it can't be excluded from...then it's unfair. Then it kind of comes down to everything being modeled as "insurance", such that you are guessing into the future as to what might happen to you and what you might need, and paying based on that.

Maybe its a convenience thing - it takes too much time.

> if I don't drive and don't have a car, I'd shortsightedly opt out of paying for road maintenance

I mean if you drive on the road you should pay more. And with modern tech we can now track road usage very precisely.

The *shortsightedly" argument could be resolved with civic education. People need to be more informed about these things. Or its like: if you don't pay for roads, then you get surcharged by any service you use that uses the roads.

> which is not to turn a profit

Government is then essentially a bunch of not-for-profits. But instead of multiple tackling the same problem, there is only one.

Nothing implies a need to turn a profit.

Those working in the public sector are incentivized by government committee scrutiny, who are incentivized by winning elections.

So you essentially have a bunch of people who do things for reasons other than money. It's a bit like open source software.

Some people will do things simply because they see there is a better way of doing them, and they enjoy doing it, and perhaps derive secondary benefits like prestige and fame.

By not voting for the "zero tax" party, people continuously show that they derive benefit from the services that their taxes pay for.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

#16

It’s an interesting thought experiment. However there are lots of services which are in-fact inherent monopolies. Take electricity transmission or your ISP for example. They have a common set of infrastructure which is hard to share among many competing interests. Who gets to decide what should be upgraded, to what, and when? How does one divvy up costs infrastructure changes which did not benefit a significant set o…

> inherent monopolies

I've learned to be careful about this "natural monopoly" term because it turns out to be very debatable. Recently with fiber deployments is a good example...see London/UK experience.

I feel like if people realized the benefits to having many companies compete for everything, then they would choose services that did not act like monopolies and to create barriers of entry.

The consumer ultimately dictates how companies should do business. The problem is a lot of the time they are choosing the price that is in front of them, and not considering the price in the future.

If consumers were smarter they could break monopolies without government intervention necessary.

Like if there were two companies building out some critical infra...if one promised they would do it in a way that others could compete easily, and consumers valued that, then they would win the contract.

> profit above all else a good objective for government services

This doesn't need to be the case.

People already work for government without profit incentive. It's personal prestige mostly I think.

Interesting to think about what would happen if we introduced duplication and competition within government departments. It seems extremely counter-intuitive because of duplication, but its how the entire capitalist sector deliver efficiencies. Same as how open source works. People compete for prestige.

Corporates sometimes do this too. Google might have multiple teams working on the same goal.

Interesting to think about what would happen if you hired two people to do one job and made them compete against each other on every task.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

#17

Nobody would pay for the fire department, yet they'll have to come put out the fire anyway, so it doesn't destroy civilization. Would all roads become toll roads? Do we just let the bridges crumble because there aren't enough people driving on them? If you pay for your police and I don't, am I the one arrested even though you were the one who broke into my house? Are companies that don't pay for the EPA allowed to po…

> Nobody would pay for the fire department

But they essentially do via their taxes. Implying people understand they need to fund it.

If we imagine a very transparent flow of information regarding fires...people would readily see the need for it. Like how we buy insurance.

All roads could be toll roads. We have technology to track exact usage of roads. Why should cyclists pay for the entire road?

If someone doesn't pay for the roads and gets a delivery, then they delivery company passes on the cost of the road.

If we have very transparent availability of pricing then this becomes possible.

> Are companies that don't pay for the EPA allowed to pollute to their heart's content?

If people don't want pollution...they shouldn't buy from companies that pollute.

If people don't want pollution they should ban it from their private property.

With modern tech we can see the entire supply chain of these companies, so consumers can make choices.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

#18
post #9

Nobody would pay for the fire department, yet they'll have to come put out the fire anyway, so it doesn't destroy civilization. Would all roads become toll roads? Do we just let the bridges crumble because there aren't enough people driving on them? If you pay for your police and I don't, am I the one arrested even though you were the one who broke into my house? Are companies that don't pay for the EPA allowed to po…

I’d also add that there are often power imbalances which are irreconcilable. If I go to buy some chicken, Tyson’s is going to laugh if I request to tour their growing facilities and processing plants. Even if I get everyone I know together to ask for it, we’re still too small a group to care about. Maybe I try organizing online, which probably goes nowhere but if it does they ask their buddies at Comcast to block acc…

> Maybe I try organizing online, which probably goes nowhere...Very few people have the time, energy, or resources

The thing is...a sector of companies that do this is probably a good business opportunity that is being crowded out by a mandatory government monopoly.

The fact that government does this means that you are already paying for it, and maybe its not being done well.

If people care about their food, they should look for a sticker on their food, from an organization that verifies it. If other people don't have the label, and people know about it, then people won't buy from them.

And if this is too much trouble, then have another industry above this where companies offer all-encompassing ratings on a variety of different things.

With modern technology so much is possible to solve problems that otherwise were too complicated.

You could end up with a marketplace of super apps, that ensure you are completely covered across all avenues of life to the parameters that you desire.

It sounds complicated, but today its even more complicated with government where we rely on the media mostly.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

#19
post #17

Nobody would pay for the fire department, yet they'll have to come put out the fire anyway, so it doesn't destroy civilization. Would all roads become toll roads? Do we just let the bridges crumble because there aren't enough people driving on them? If you pay for your police and I don't, am I the one arrested even though you were the one who broke into my house? Are companies that don't pay for the EPA allowed to po…

> Nobody would pay for the fire department But they essentially do via their taxes. Implying people understand they need to fund it. If we imagine a very transparent flow of information regarding fires...people would readily see the need for it. Like how we buy insurance. All roads could be toll roads. We have technology to track exact usage of roads. Why should cyclists pay for the entire road? If someone doesn't pa…

Surely you can see how insane this idea is IRT pollution. If companies aren’t forced to NOT pollute, they will pollute. Government very rarely (at least in the West) regulates industries for the sake of regulation. Usually, those regulations exist because companies wouldn’t self-regulate and “do the right thing.” History has shown time and time again that if given the choice, a company would rather poison and kill its employees, their families, and neighboring communities (and in some cases, their customers), than lose out on profits.

IRT fires: fires are extremely unlikely to hit your specific house. You already have insurance for it. No, the fire department isn’t there to put out your fire to save your house. They are there to stop a single fire from burning down the city. I’ve seen this happen on our base in Afghanistan. It all started with a small fire, the guy ran to get a fire extinguisher, but by the time he got back, the fire was too big. In less than an hour, half the base was gone. People prioritized saving mattresses over ammo (mattresses would be the last thing replaced while ammo would be replaced immediately, and fuck sleeping on the ground).

IRT roads: you are basically saying the rich have freedom of movement but the poor do not. With taxes, more can be taken from those that have more and less can be taken from those who have less. Having mobility in a civilized society is one of the hallmarks of a civilized society instead of middle age bs.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't we turn government into a subscription service?

#20
post #7

I'll assume that you're at least vaguely familiar with European-style (government) healthcare, and also American-style (corporate) healthcare. If you are one of the few, who are getting a good cut of the every-growing profits, then the latter is nice. More so if you're one of the very few, who are too rich to care how much the "best care" often costs in America.

I'm interested to dive into this healthcare topic a bit deeper.

To find out what a true free market of healthcare looks like.

Often you find that government intervention distorts markets.

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...and this looks like the case.

For example, people complain that benefits are tied to employers. But this was caused by the government capping wage increases to combat inflation in 1942, which resulted in companies offering pre-tax health benefits.

This looks like it is changing as people are like: wtf this makes no sense and creates so many bad incentives.

It looks like market forces will fix the system in the end, maybe it just takes 50 years or so.

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