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Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

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11–20 of 68 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

#11
I dunno if LLMs will get better, but ML in general is a task of compression, and there is definitely a whole bunch of human knowledge and history that neural nets can compress.

Its not unfeasable in the future to have a box at home that you can ask a fairly complicated question, like "how do I build a flying car", and it will have the ability to

- tell you step by step instructions of what you need to order

- write and run code to simulate certain things

- analyze you work from video streams and provide feedback

- possibly even have a robotic arm with attachments that can do some work.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

#12
They are going to add more abilities onto the system, for example, toolformers or goal planning (like the recent Q* stuff at OpenAI people are talking about). This will make the overall product very powerful.

But even if you’re looking just at the LLM it seems like there’s a lot of ways it can be improved still.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

#13
I think part of it is that some people say a person is 20 petaflops of compute

So if we have that much compute power already why can't we just configure it in the right way to match a human brain?

I'm not sure I totally buy that logic though, since I would think the architecture/efficiency of a brain is way different from a computer

Re: Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

#14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can do it for $20B and a pony

I did the numbers already using a small LLM and it said the real number is $80B and no ponies.

Would that be $80B in 2020 or 2024 dollars? What vintage is your small LLM?

Re: Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

#15
LLMs are comprised of just three elements

Data

Compute

Algorithms

All three are just scratching the surface of what is possible.

Data: What has been scraped off the internet is just Compute: While 3nm processes are approaching an atomic limit (0.21nm for Si), there is still room to explore more densely packed transistors or other materials like Gallium Nitride or optical computing. Not only that but there is a lot of room in hardware architecture to allow more parallelism and 3-D stacked transistors.

Algorithms: The transformer and other attention mechanisms have several sub-optimal components to them like how arbitrary the Transformer is in terms of design decisions, and quadratic time complexity for attention. There also seems to be a large space of LLM augmentations like RLHF for instruction following and improvements in factuality and other mechanisms.

And these ideas are just from my own limited experience. So I think its fair to say that LLMs have plenty of room to improve.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

#17
post #15

LLMs are comprised of just three elements Data Compute Algorithms All three are just scratching the surface of what is possible. Data: What has been scraped off the internet is just Compute: While 3nm processes are approaching an atomic limit (0.21nm for Si), there is still room to explore more densely packed transistors or other materials like Gallium Nitride or optical computing. Not only that but there is a lot of…

I'm sorry but you can have process nodes smaller than an atom. The size of atoms is irrelevant here. The process node refers to what dimensions a theoretical planar transistor would have to be equivalent to the current 3D transistors. If you stack multiple transistors on top of one another, the process node gets smaller regardless of what you think.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

#18
post #6

Because a lot of smart people are spending a lot of time, money, and effort on this. It's as simple as that. We could go into all sorts of details, like how increase in GPU capabilities will improve training capabilities, both in size and speed, or how GPU(/TPU) capabilities will improve, or how better techniques will make training on the same data set result in better models, or where other improvements will make be…

I mean a lot of highly payed/intelligent people worked in crypto/fusion/quantum computing, still all of those topics are evolving rather gradually.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

#19
The scaling laws (the original Kaplan paper, Chinchilla, and OpenAI's very opaque scaling graphs for GPT-4) suggest indefinite improvement for the current style of transformers with additional pre-training data and parameters.

No one has hit a model/dataset size where the curves break down, and they're fairly smooth. Usually simple models that accurately predict performance work pretty well nearby existing performance, so I expect trillion or 10-trillion parameter models to be on the same curve.

What we haven't seen yet (that I'm aware of) is whether the specializations to existing models (LoRa, RLHF, different attention methods, etc.) follow similar scaling laws, since most of the efforts have been focused on achieving similar performance on smaller/sparser models and not investing the large amounts of money into huge experiments. It will be interesting to see what Deepmind Gemini reveals.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it taken for granted that LLM models will keep improving?

#20
I don't know about the specifics of mikewarot's point below, but I think he's close to verbalizing a fairly-important truth: there is no reason whatsoever to think that Von Neumann machines are the best way to implement neural networks. There are lots of reasons to think they aren't, starting with the VRAM bottleneck. The impressive results that have been achieved so far have almost certainly come from using the wrong tools. That's cause for optimism IMHO.

Digital computer architecture evolved the way it did because there was no other practical way to get the job done besides enforcing a strict separation of powers between the ALU, memory, mass storage, and I/O. We are no longer held to those constraints, technically, but they still constitute a big comfort zone. Maybe someone tinkering with a bunch of FPGAs duct-taped together in their basement will be the first to break out of it in a meaningful way.

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