Ask HN: Does your web app work with javascript off? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Does your web app work with javascript off?

#11

Post by Lazare » Thu, Apr 05, 2012, 1:07 PM UTC

kls wrote: post #10

Lazare wrote: post #6

It's a hard choice. I was recently involved in a project that was heavily focused on progressive enhancement - we started with a "standard" HTML app with forms and submit buttons. Every interaction required a full page load. Then we started using Javascript to enhance the UX in such a way that it still worked without Javascript. It was a long and tricky process, because progressive enhancement is inherently quite fra…

You would have saved a lot of time and frustration by building the single page app first and putting analytics on it to see how many non-JavaScript clients you where getting (most are surprised at how few the number is) and then if the number justify it, build out an older style UI separate from the modern web app that just proxies data to the same REST services, then use a sniffer to decide where each client goes. T…

I know! :( It was definitely a learning experience.

And in regards to your comment on mobile: Agreed! Not only is getting a slick mobile client a much more important use of resources that stuffing around with progressive enhancement, but a good JSON/REST API is really really helpful when it comes time to get a mobile app working.

Thinking of webapps as client-server applications communicating via a JSON API is really helpful at the moment, I think.

Re: Ask HN: Does your web app work with javascript off?

#12

Post by kls » Thu, Apr 05, 2012, 1:11 PM UTC

Is this the "right" way to be doing this?

This is a subjective question and there is a lot of dogma surrounding the question. I tend to answer my questions with dollars as in are the dollars there to chase that market and would the money to chase that market be better spent chasing a larger market? My second question to myself if which is less costly to develop and maintain? Finally a little more hard to quantify but which can I make better conversions with?

The first one is pretty easy, for a good deal of sites the percentage of browsers that do not support or have JavaScript turned off is usually less than 1% I have seen numbers as high as 2% either way, it is below niche at best. It is pretty easy to make the statement that the money would be better spent chasing mobile or even in advertising for the 99% than it would be to chase the 1%.

The second one is a little more subjective but I have found for me and my team that writing UI's 100% in JavaScript/HTML/CSS simplifies the architecture and increases our time to market. I personally feel the worst solution is to sprinkle JavaScript into a server side solution such as PHP, ASP, or JSP it creates a more complex stack and complicates the solution requiring more layers and more specializations. With the UI being in all client side technologies, it becomes very easy to stub JSON messages and use those as the contract between front end and back end teams. I actually prefer the modern way of developing web application over the old server side model.

Finally I feel that the flexibility of JavaScript solutions and there rapid development model give them the edge on building UI's for conversion, simple tweaks can be made to the UI and delivered without the need for a full deployment of back end services. As well their are UI metaphors that just cannot be done in page-post. While I will be the first to note that this is subjective it works well for myself and my team and we have delivered some very large, adaptable, yet maintainable applications in JavaScript.

Re: Ask HN: Does your web app work with javascript off?

#13

Post by kls » Thu, Apr 05, 2012, 1:14 PM UTC

Lazare wrote: post #11

kls wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would have saved a lot of time and frustration by building the single page app first and putting analytics on it to see how many non-JavaScript clients you where getting (most are surprised at how few the number is) and then if the number justify it, build out an older style UI separate from the modern web app that just proxies data to the same REST services, then use a sniffer to decide where each client goes. T…

I know! :( It was definitely a learning experience. And in regards to your comment on mobile: Agreed! Not only is getting a slick mobile client a much more important use of resources that stuffing around with progressive enhancement, but a good JSON/REST API is really really helpful when it comes time to get a mobile app working. Thinking of webapps as client-server applications communicating via a JSON API is really…

Yes many people make that leap after a first iteration, but once you do the pattern becomes very clear and very powerful. Looking at your back-end as a platform for all future clients really helps as well.

Re: Ask HN: Does your web app work with javascript off?

#14

Post by eugenijusr » Thu, Apr 05, 2012, 3:34 PM UTC

First of all it depends on the app. If it's a public service I personally find that having this constraint of making your app work with JavaScript off leads to a better web architecture. It doesn't break the web and pays off in the long run for whoever might integrate with your app or whatever products might consume it now or in the near future. Graceful degradation is not all about the end-users.

So my advice would be if you're building a JavaScript only app you have to really know what you're doing, because it's very easy to get carried away with it. Keep in mind that you risk making it "incompatible" with the web. When a need arises to be "compatible" you might end up finding yourself building second version of the same app.

Re: Ask HN: Does your web app work with javascript off?

#15

Post by true_religion » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 8:50 PM UTC

Nope. If you head to my site, and try to use it without Javascript it'll work for simple browsing but not for content creation.

It's a decision I made early on not to support a vanishing minority of users who have javascript off by choice or by force.

Re: Ask HN: Does your web app work with javascript off?

#16

Post by joshontheweb » Sun, Apr 08, 2012, 6:04 AM UTC

there is a difference between a web site and a web app. a web site can and likely should work with js off. Once you dive into the realm of building web apps, then you basically give up on that idea. As you said, it is a small demographic anyway.

Re: Ask HN: Does your web app work with javascript off?

#17

Post by CyberFonic » Wed, Apr 18, 2012, 1:16 AM UTC

I had to re-check the date of the post and it isn't 2006 but 2012 !!! Three observations:

1) If your users aren't using a HTML5 compliant browser then they should update. Supporting a multitude of outdated browsers is just way too big a workload.

2) Using JavaScript/AJAX intelligently reduces the load on your server. Why generate all that HTML on demand at the server when you have a dual core CPU with a couple of Gigs of RAM twiddling its thumbs at the client end?

3) With mobile apps, your users will thank you for minimising the amount of traffic your app generates. Why push down full pages when only the data needs to be sent?

Re: Ask HN: Does your web app work with javascript off?

#18

Post by CyberFonic » Wed, Apr 18, 2012, 1:23 AM UTC

kellros wrote: post #5

I'd say a couple of years ago - gradeful degradation was a must. Nowadays - unless you're running some kind of viral service (facebook, twitter etc.) that benefits from masses instead of customers, it's not a requirement. Still a nice to have, but if people can't update their software, they should 'suffer the consequences'.

"Can't update" ??? Why would that be ?

* Corporate policy - Fred Flintstone Enterprises? Still running IE 4 !

* Underpowered computer - buy a new one!

* Don't know how - pay someone to do it for you!

Google Chrome runs on Windows, Mac & Linux and it auto-updates. What's there not to like?